When to use chemi clean?

[jadedog]

Good morning!

Ive been battling cyano for the past few months on my 8 month old reef tank. Ive picked it out siphoned it out and have been dosing microbacter clean for a month. I bought chemiclean a month ago but I didnt use it because I wanted to do it naturally. Im at a cross road because ive made sure I have good flow and I am making sure im not bottoming out on nutrients(i have slipped up once or twice). So at this point should I just use the chemiclean? Are there any drawbacks? I do all my tank maintenance like I should but It seems I can't win the battle. Tank was started with dry rock and sand if that matters.

 

[steveschuerger]

I’d be hitting it with the chemi clean. It does work very well in most cases. Just follow the directions carefully and it’ll be fine most likely. I’ve used it myself several times in the past

 

[EnterName]

During the first year of a tank the microbiology is still developing (you started dry, so it takes quite long). During this time I wouldn't recommend invasive treatments like algaecides, antibiotics, etc. It would just throw your tank back.

First I would double check that you are really dealing with Cyanos. Maybe you can upload some images under neutral/white light.

Afterwards I'm sure we will find some steps you can take that won't hurt your tank's microbiology.

 

[jadedog]

During the first year of a tank the microbiology is still developing (you started dry, so it takes quite long). During this time I wouldn't recommend invasive treatments like algaecides, antibiotics, etc. It would just throw your tank back.

First I would double check that you are really dealing with Cyanos. Maybe you can upload some images under neutral/white light.

Afterwards I'm sure we will find some steps you can take that won't hurt your tank's microbiology.

Thanks for the reply! Im currently at work so i cannot take a picture however I am 99% sure it is cyano. It forms in thick red matts on the sandbed and slowly gets bigger. I will upload some pictures today when I get home. This is what scares me about chemiclean I dont wanna hurt my tank.

 

[CHSUB]

I would never use chemi clean, used once back in ~2002 and it worked however no need to use to control algae. Algae growth is never a symptom of “bottom out nutrients” goes against basic biology. Lack of nutrients stuff dies, just common sense.

 

[jadedog]

I would never use chemi clean, used once back in ~2002 and it worked however no need to use to control algae. Algae growth is never a symptom of “bottom out nutrients” goes against basic biology. Lack of nutrients stuff dies, just common sense.

Cyano is a bacteria not a algae. Everything ive read online says it thrives and out performs other "good bacteria" when nutrients are low.

 

[EnterName]

Cyano is a bacteria not a algae. Everything ive read online says it thrives and out performs other "good bacteria" when nutrients are low.

I think it depends on the species. Nutrients appear to be low during a cyano outbreak because cyanos are so fast in multiplying and consuming them and in reality there is more than enough nutrients to support all that growth which should be limited by carbon (most tanks appear carbon limited).

That's why bottoming out nutrients during a cyano outbreak might not be a bad thing.

When we talk about dinoflagellates it's a different story. Some of those protists seem to have developed specialized uptake mechanisms to be able to consume nutrients at levels other organisms cannot consume them anymore. Some are also mixotrophic and can prey on other organisms to meet their nutritional needs. That's why they often take over in ultra low nutrient environments. It's not like they don't need nutrients or prefer low nutrients, but nothing else manages to compete with them. Diatoms are doing quite well in low nutrient environments but will still be outcompeted by dinoflagellates.

It will be worth trying to get rid of dissolved organic carbon and nutrients if it's actually cyano. If that doesn't help for prolonged periods of time you can still try the other way and dose nutrients with a DIY ammonia and phosphate stock solution.

 

[CHSUB]

Cyano is a bacteria not an algae. Everything ive read online says it thrives and out performs other "good bacteria" when nutrients are low.

You can get technical with Wikipedia, however for the hobby concern it is classified as a nuisance algae. Nothing out performs bacteria, hobby myth.

How quickly can a bacterium grow?

Physicist finds that E. coli replicate close to thermodynamic limits of efficiency.

news.mit.edu

How Dormant Bacteria Return to Life

Solution to long-standing mystery of bacterial spores illuminates new paths for disease prevention

hms.harvard.edu

 

[jadedog]

I think it depends on the species. Nutrients appear to be low during a cyano outbreak because cyanos are so fast in multiplying and consuming them and in reality there is more than enough nutrients to support all that growth which should be limited by carbon (most tanks appear carbon limited).

That's why bottoming out nutrients during a cyano outbreak might not be a bad thing.

When we talk about dinoflagellates it's a different story. Some of those protists seem to have developed specialized uptake mechanisms to be able to consume nutrients at levels other organisms cannot consume them anymore. Some are also mixotrophic and can prey on other organisms to meet their nutritional needs. That's why they often take over in ultra low nutrient environments. It's not like they don't need nutrients or prefer low nutrients, but nothing else manages to compete with them. Diatoms are doing quite well in low nutrient environments but will still be outcompeted by dinoflagellates.

It will be worth trying to get rid of dissolved organic carbon and nutrients if it's actually cyano. If that doesn't help for prolonged periods of time you can still try the other way and dose nutrients with a DIY ammonia and phosphate stock solution.

Thanks for the detailed comment. Im just at a lost on what to do I dont really wanna bottom out because of my corals. I have been dosing nitrates and phosphate daily to keep them detectable which I guess might be making it worse.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

Cyano is a bacteria not a algae. Everything ive read online says it thrives and out performs other "good bacteria" when nutrients are low.

A quick google confirmed thats not entirely correct. It is generally high nutrients that cause cyano. IT can happen with low nutrients, if the nutrients are imballanced, or the flow is too low, or too much light..... as you say technically it is not algae but for our hobby purpose it acts just like algae and we eradicate it just like algae.

This idea that nutrients should be kept high is a very new in our hobby, and IMO its not correct and not proven. I just don't understand the idea of feeding algae to make it die, and you'll be surprised how many people do this these days. If you want algae to die, generally we should starve it, not feed it.

 

[CHSUB]

Thanks for the detailed comment. Im just at a lost on what to do I dont really wanna bottom out because of my corals. I have been dosing nitrates and phosphate daily to keep them detectable which I guess might be making it worse.

Coral have the ability to feed multiple ways, most algae do not and still require inorganic nutrients to grow. You can directly feed corals and remove waste through maintenance. Feed the coral, no need to feed algae…it is that simple, people want to outsmart how it is done neutrally.

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

I would be heavily dosing good bacteria, pods and phyto to promote the growth and competition of the stuff you want.

I would strongly suggest against dosing chemiclean as it's a catch-all antibiotic that will also decimate your other microbiome and the rebound will be 10x worse.

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

A quick google confirmed thats not entirely correct. It is generally high nutrients that cause cyano. IT can happen with low nutrients, if the nutrients are imballanced, or the flow is too low, or too much light..... as you say technically it is not algae but for our hobby purpose it acts just like algae and we eradicate it just like algae.

This idea that nutrients should be kept high is a very new in our hobby, and IMO its not correct and not proven. I just don't understand the idea of feeding algae to make it die, and you'll be surprised how many people do this these days. If you want algae to die, generally we should starve it, not feed it.

IMO it's the dissolved organics that cause the nasty outbreaks like cyano to explode and not necessarily NO3 and PO4. You can have a very high DOC with not much nutrients showing up on tests.

 

[jadedog]

Coral have the ability to feed multiple ways, most algae do not and still require inorganic nutrients to grow. You can directly feed corals and remove waste through maintenance. Feed the coral, no need to feed algae…it is that simple, people want to outsmart how it is done neutrally.

Ok I will probably go this route thank you

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

IMO it's the dissolved organics that cause the nasty outbreaks like cyano to explode and not necessarily NO3 and PO4. You can have a very high DOC with not much nutrients showing up on tests.

Agree, dissolved organics is my enemy (I have a seahorse tank and I have seen the damage doc's can cause)

 

[jadedog]

I would be heavily dosing good bacteria, pods and phyto to promote the growth and competition of the stuff you want.

I would strongly suggest against dosing chemiclean as it's a catch-all antibiotic that will also decimate your other microbiome and the rebound will be 10x worse.

Yeah I dont really wanna dose chemiclean. I will keep dosing bacteria and manually removing and feeding less to help fight it. I was dosing nutrients but in hindsight this was probably only making it worse I was just trying to get nutrients detectable.

 

[CHSUB]

I was just trying to get nutrients detectable

Nutrients would be detectable with better resolution testing….

 

[EnterName]

Coral have the ability to feed multiple ways, most algae do not and still require inorganic nutrients to grow. You can directly feed corals and remove waste through maintenance. Feed the coral, no need to feed algae…it is that simple, people want to outsmart how it is done neutrally.

Corals usually only meet a fraction of their nutritional needs through digestion (heterotrophic feeding supplies 15-35% of the daily metabolic requirements and 0-66% of the fixed carbon into coral skeleton). If non-detectable nutrient levels are working in a tank, it's very likely that (for example) ammonia is available but gets consumed before it is being oxidized to nitrite and nitrate making it "undetectable" with nitrate tests. In an actually nutrient-limited system (rare) feeding might not be enough until the excessive food is broken down and provides the required carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus, which is well known to cause coral bleaching when deficient.

Nutrients would be detectable with better resolution testing….

We can detect nutrients at very low levels with ICP, but that doesn't mean organisms like corals are still capable of consuming. Their uptake mechanisms have to allow for the assimilation on a biochemical level. Bacteria will probably be able to deal with lower nutrient levels than even dinoflagellates (and therefore zooxanthellae), but I would have to take a closer look especially when considering cyanobacteria.

In other words: It very well appears to be possible to have scenarios in which bacteria can grow but corals would starve.

I fully agree with you that there are most likely more than enough nutrients in OP's tank to have the readings drop quite far (even undetectable) without any issues for quite a while, but I would be careful to not oversimplify these things.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Good morning!

Ive been battling cyano for the past few months on my 8 month old reef tank. Ive picked it out siphoned it out and have been dosing microbacter clean for a month. I bought chemiclean a month ago but I didnt use it because I wanted to do it naturally. Im at a cross road because ive made sure I have good flow and I am making sure im not bottoming out on nutrients(i have slipped up once or twice). So at this point should I just use the chemiclean? Are there any drawbacks? I do all my tank maintenance like I should but It seems I can't win the battle. Tank was started with dry rock and sand if that matters.

ChemiClean, very pricey for a small vial is often an alternative and not a solution. You said naturally - first is to identify cause as you can dump 7 vials and be back at square one. Cyano blooms typically happen when phosphate, nitrate and other organic compound levels are too high where there are areas with little flow, detritus builds up and becomes a base for cyano. Water changes are important unlike what the perception of not doing one which reduces the organic content that feeds cyano.
Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with air bubbles which form from the reaction chamber allow dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to the collection cup, where it settles as skim-mate. When a protein skimmer is ineffective or absent or cant keep up with the tank, the air bubbles created might be insufficient and can trigger this outbreak .
- Using Aminos can actually feed cyano.
- Overstocking / overfeeding, your tank with nutrients is often causes cyano
- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured will be a breeding ground for this red slime .
- If you don’t change your water regularly, you’ll soon have this red substance as regular water changes dissolve nutrients which support cyano
- Using water high in nitrates or phosphates are a base for cyano. . . . . Tap water is an example of po4 and no3 introduction.
- Inadequate water flow is often a chief cause of cyano as slow moving water combined with excessive dissolved nutrients creates red slime algae

I recommend to reduce white light intensity or even turn them off for 3-5 days. Add liquid bacteria daily for a week during the day at 1.5ml per 10 gallons. Add Hydrogen peroxide at night at 1ml per 10 gallons. Add a pouch of chemipure Elite which will balance phos and nitrate and keep them in check.

After the 5 days, add a few snails such as cerith, margarita, astrea

 

[jadedog]

Corals usually only meet a fraction of their nutritional needs through digestion (heterotrophic feeding supplies 15-35% of the daily metabolic requirements and 0-66% of the fixed carbon into coral skeleton). If non-detectable nutrient levels are working in a tank, it's very likely that (for example) ammonia is available but gets consumed before it is being oxidized to nitrite and nitrate making it "undetectable" with nitrate tests. In an actually nutrient-limited system (rare) feeding might not be enough until the excessive food is broken down and provides the required carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus, which is well known to cause coral bleaching when deficient.


We can detect nutrients at very low levels with ICP, but that doesn't mean organisms like corals are still capable of consuming. Their uptake mechanisms have to allow for the assimilation on a biochemical level. Bacteria will probably be able to deal with lower nutrient levels than even dinoflagellates (and therefore zooxanthellae), but I would have to take a closer look especially when considering cyanobacteria.

In other words: It very well appears to be possible to have scenarios in which bacteria can grow but corals would starve.

I fully agree with you that there are most likely more than enough nutrients in OP's tank to have the readings drop quite far (even undetectable) without any issues for quite a while, but I would be careful to not oversimplify these things.

So there can be nutrients even when my hannah checkers read 0?