When you would NOT buy or use bottled bacteria

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brandon429

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We know that the sales machine behind bottle bacteria needs a counter balance. let's discuss here specific times we would not click buy, times we wouldnt add oxygen-competing bulk organisms to a reef tank.

even if the whim is strong

every action you make from tank cleaning to tank moving is now linked to the click of an order for cycling bac, just to be safe... google this: "stalled reef tank cycle"
a purchase option comes up.

everyone using digital calibrated ammonia sampling, pick your device, agrees if you want to skip waiting for a cycle buying bottle bac for a dry start system will legitimately control free ammonia such that your fish act normal in perfectly clean water after being fed multiple times, that's the definition of a cycled tank->it can ethically carry the intended bioload without allowing free ammonia buildup. (and the tradeoff is quick disease import)


bottle bac does this well, see Dr. Reef's ninety straight pages of bottle bac review/testing thread.

but that's where the use stops, all these below and more are times you would not add cycling bac to a reef tank


the prediction is that 90% of readers indeed have bought and added bottle bac to these situations, thank the marketing teams:



1. anytime you are dealing with display tank rocks that are more than 60 days matured in water

All common cycling arrangements in reefing complete by day sixty, its a firm undebatable rule purposefully downplayed by the sales machine and replaced with a form of recurring doubt about what water bacteria do in water. You dont have room for more cycling bac on day sixty, its skimmed and floc'd and wasted if added in bulk. The surfaces are already seeded with all bac, water shear handles much of the cull, so if you want to increase filtration you'd add more surface area, not bottled bac.
even if you could compile more bacteria by slowing flow, that reduces your surface area vs increases it.

Read this direct example of using aged rocks and not adding bottled bacteria:

the sales machine depends on us not factoring surface area moreso than bacteria where filtration is intended to occur.

2. anytime you are dealing with substrate (including live rocks) that arrives wet from another source, don't add bottle bac meant for dry rock cycling. We already listed the sole time you are allowed to use bottle bac in a civilized reef tank society.

3. During any power outage. similarly, if you have a large cut on your arm you would specifically keep it clean vs add mixed aerobic bacteria x100000. The #1 time to not add cycling bac is during a power outage= oxygen competing organisms

4. after any form of tank cleaning. you arent harming your tank's biofilter in your cleaning, google "reef tank rip clean" and see how rough that looks - no bottle bac allowed in those.

5. If you want to increase filtration carry capacity in your reef tank, you do not add bottle bac (see rule 1)
you add more surface area. This hobby needs to worry about surface area, not bac, but then again you can't bottle and sell surface area as well as designing it inherently into the reef setup (live rocks)

6. as any form of refreshment, these bacteria are certain to be overtaken shortly after addition into your tank. Aquabiomics DNA testing specifically found that initial cycling strains aren't present in the system to any substantial degree by month 24 in their review posts, pull the threads and check the patterns reported.

7. ?
 
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brandon429

brandon429

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am not opposed to experimenting with additional bottle bac when doubting carry capacity isn't the motivation

want to try and reduce water changes using sludge digestors/breaking down detritus even further to be more easily exported? harmless, not a problem. some strains that are used in limnology and lake controls really do work, others are aquarium sales additives found in the chem forum as unimpactful in detritus-reducing tests.

the only time we add cycling bac is when ammonia control is in doubt

at no time after a cycle does a reef tank fail to control its ammonia, other than a fish kill prior to the ammonia event allowed to stay and degrade in the tank (disease or poison or hardware issues w kill fish, not an initial failure to control ammonia, it self controls after the cycle completes, free)

I know some folks who have very low sandbed cleaning work due and they feel the added bacteria are helping with waste breakdown.

there are quarantine/low surface area situations that can benefit by the actions of suspended nitrifying groups, just not post-cycle reef tanks.

this reef uses the old rocks, so we would not use bottled bacteria here

they still did, the market setup is this strong. it will trick us out of money if given permission to do so


here's another, look at how peers firmly recommend using bottled bac in jobs where matured live rocks are in place.
 
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brandon429

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#7. After an extended fallow period, or to bolster existing surface area.

Fallow periods do not weaken a biofilter or they'd be addressed in rule #1


Adding bottled bacteria to a reef already cycled without increasing surface area for it to implant is a total waste of money used in bottle bac purchases. Fallow systems cannot be starved of bacteria by us withholding feed, that's buyers training at work. When we withhold feed from aquarium bacteria in an open topped reef tank, they feed anyway. That's sellers training. You haven't been given the free mode of cycling for a reason. It doesn't sell.

If you want to see irrefutable proof that fallow can't starve a cycle, read MSteven1's post information here


That is a full reef aquarium cycle with no feed given, no bottle bac, merely waiting sixty days. A fallowed reef tank has organic waste packed into every crevice, its eighty years of feed still left in the tank even when fish are gone

Now we see where rule #1 comes from... If running fallow starved a cycle then free upcycling couldn't occur. Free upcycling occurs because a home environment feeds water bacteria quite well by cross contamination.



8. ?
 
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brandon429

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8. When you buy a bio brick, you don’t double buy mb7 or any other bacteria to add to it, your aquarium adds the bac free


selling you bottled bacteria to dose to a dry brick is why this thread exists. Lol they’re aerobic bacteria, is the goal of your biobrick aerobic nitrification or anaerobic de nitrification? your tank seeds these bio bricks you don’t pair it with a bottle bac purchase



Is BRS recommending this to buyers? maybe they have input for the matter, I asked below.


what good does dosing mixed heterotrophs do when your tank is full of them anyway, and DNA sampling of your brick ten months later just shows a totally different bacterial community on the brick or inside it vs what came from the bottle? See any aquabiomics test…cycling bacteria were quickly replaced by selected resident strains.


Bottled bacteria sellers rely on your doubt in natural systems to create a buying impulse. They then benefit again if we recommend the practice to friends online as free cross marketing.

9. ?
 
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N.Sreefer

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If I want to add bacteria to a sterile new tank I drop a frozen shrimp in and wait a couple weeks I don't have enough money to waste mine on snakeoil. Completely agree its a rip off, could seed that brick with any number of things, uncured live rock or just wait for it to become colonized in your tank.
 
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brandon429

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Agreed. The decaying shrimp will feed natural bacteria that is vectored into the tank during the build and setup process from not using sterile media and handling techniques. The cycle will complete in sixty days or less not even using a shrimp, per MSteven1’s linked test above. Adding a shrimp cut that wait time by 2/3rds and adding bottle bac would cut the wait time to zero in most cases. All we get is a wait time benefit, no others.


these bac aren’t a diversity boost, they’re not selected for long term in the reef so don’t buy them for that intention, it’s a one and done situation

the bottled cycling strains aren’t a ripoff, they’re functional and able to save someone that initial wait for the ability to handle a common starting bioload and so far, that’s the only reason I can see to buy cycling bacteria-to avoid the wait time that free cycling requires


retailers create a doubt for their buyers and then address it :) that’s the rip-off.


here is a perfect example of your approach used in howaboutme’s tank. Look at these updates wow


that is a no bottle bac reef, made ready in a mere 30 days wait (matches a cycling chart) by only feeding but not direct addition of paid bacteria. We absolutely do not require a bacteria purchase from a bottle to bring up a dry start reef tank
 
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brandon429

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#9. When changing out substrate or upgrading reef tanks


see rule #1, your sand wasn’t part of the rule because the sandbed bacteria don’t matter. Swapping old substrate for new still uses your matured display rocks, so you wouldn’t buy bottled bac to add even if the new sand is dry. Your aquarium isn’t linked to sandbed bacteria they’re merely tolerated bioload. When you change substrate for new, the bac on the live rock are still enough to handle the original bioload. There is no mini cycle risk if you swap the sand using the right order of ops, mini cycles don’t happen in reefing they are test misreads when using non digital test kits + interference on the kit by other compounds in the water.

all sand swap rules have been proofed here excessively

no bottle bac use allowed, it’s six years of substrate swaps all done in one pass, no bottle bac.
 

Paul B

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I have never used it and see no need. But I would imagine if you live in Omaha or Tunisia you may want it.

I used garden soil. But I also had access to the sea so I added mud.
 

N.Sreefer

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I have never used it and see no need. But I would imagine if you live in Omaha or Tunisia you may want it.

I used garden soil. But I also had access to the sea so I added mud.
What kind of soil? Clay, loam, sandy, or peat based?
 
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I don't know, whatever was in my back yard. The soil doesn't matter, it is the bacteria in the soil I wanted. I also fed earthworms, not only for the worms but for the worm poop and soil in their guts because it is gut bacteria that run our tanks, not so much bottled bacteria although I don't think that is bad.

Fish or clam poop or guts is better which I discovered many years ago which is still what I feed almost every meal.

If you feed natural things from the sea with the associated bacteria it will in a very short time populate the tank and your fishes guts.
 

Reef and Dive

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Just to spice the discussion… aren’t we counting too much on nitrifying bacteria?

I personally believe that adding diversity specially of non-nitrifying bacteria often could help to improve diversity and a good friendly population.

Remember, bad bacteria seems to play an important role on various diseases (BJD, STN/RTN etc).

Experimentally speaking, adding some strains often provide a measurable result while dealing with problems like dino or cyano blooms…
 
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brandon429

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That's all good, I wonder if dirt from a cotton field would work/ to my left

I'm all for experimenting with dinos control by adding competing strains/ not intended for cycling but sludge digestion types or those from natural sources
 
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brandon429

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the lfs have been taking money from buyers using incorrect sales practices in many cases when it comes to bottled bacteria
 
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Dan_P

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We know that the sales machine behind bottle bacteria needs a counter balance. let's discuss here specific times we would not click buy, times we wouldnt add oxygen-competing bulk organisms to a reef tank.

even if the whim is strong

every action you make from tank cleaning to tank moving is now linked to the click of an order for cycling bac, just to be safe... google this: "stalled reef tank cycle"
a purchase option comes up.

everyone using digital calibrated ammonia sampling, pick your device, agrees if you want to skip waiting for a cycle buying bottle bac for a dry start system will legitimately control free ammonia such that your fish act normal in perfectly clean water after being fed multiple times, that's the definition of a cycled tank->it can ethically carry the intended bioload without allowing free ammonia buildup. (and the tradeoff is quick disease import)


bottle bac does this well, see Dr. Reef's ninety straight pages of bottle bac review/testing thread.

but that's where the use stops, all these below and more are times you would not add cycling bac to a reef tank


the prediction is that 90% of readers indeed have bought and added bottle bac to these situations, thank the marketing teams:



1. anytime you are dealing with display tank rocks that are more than 60 days matured in water

All common cycling arrangements in reefing complete by day sixty, its a firm undebatable rule purposefully downplayed by the sales machine and replaced with a form of recurring doubt about what water bacteria do in water. You dont have room for more cycling bac on day sixty, its skimmed and floc'd and wasted if added in bulk. The surfaces are already seeded with all bac, water shear handles much of the cull, so if you want to increase filtration you'd add more surface area, not bottled bac.
even if you could compile more bacteria by slowing flow, that reduces your surface area vs increases it.

the sales machine depends on us not factoring surface area moreso than bacteria where oxidation is intended to occur.

2. anytime you are dealing with substrate that arrives wet from another source, don't add bottle bac meant for dry rock cycling. We already listed the sole time you are allowed to use bottle bac in a civilized reef tank society.

3. During any power outage. similarly, if you have a large cut on your arm you would specifically keep it clean vs add mixed aerobic bacteria x100000. The #1 time to not add cycling bac is during a power outage= oxygen competing organisms

4. after any form of tank cleaning. you arent harming your tank's biofilter in your cleaning, google "reef tank rip clean" and see how rough that looks - no bottle bac allowed in those.

5. If you want to increase filtration carry capacity in your reef tank, you do not add bottle bac (see rule 1)
you add more surface area. This hobby needs to worry about surface area, not bac, but then again you can't bottle and sell surface area as well as designing it inherently into the reef setup (live rocks)

6. as any form of refreshment, these bacteria are certain to be overtaken shortly after addition into your tank. Aquabiomics DNA testing specifically found that initial cycling strains aren't present in the system to any substantial degree by month 24 in their review posts, pull the threads and check the patterns reported.

7. ?
No bottled bacteria producer provides any scientific data that adding bacteria accomplishes anything. There are only testimonials and anecdotal data to support their claims. This type of product rates the “snake oil” designation.
 
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brandon429

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Dan you know what I’d like to see: aquarium-marketed sludge digesting bac compared to how lake and river management scientists manage sludge digestion

There are myriad scientific studies online for limnology work


I don’t think they dose bottled or powdered bac to massive natural water systems, I’m pretty sure they dose bulk oxidizers like perchlorate and others to boost natural residents and affect detritus breakdown that way, when fish kills happen etc or when ecological imbalances happen


eutrophic lakes aren’t controlled by dosing bacteria they’re handled by destratification and flow changes (using giant bubbler setups the size of vehicles) so that high vs low oxygen zones began to equalize and scientists add o2 boosts so natural complements can reduce waste and currents can redistribute. I feel this is one reason our rip clean tanks shine so brightly, and are 100% oligotrophic after the job… we physically destratify those systems vs dose and wait for it.

by removing surface area - lowering impacted waste we allowed natural systems to gain the upper hand with zero bottle bac used
 
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Reef and Dive

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I find interesting most users are so skeptical about bottled bacteria.

I agree we have too little information on bacteria genre provided and have too little knowledge on their production line.

BUT, there is a great BUT, since I’ve done and helped many people with dinoflagellate problems, I must aknowledge that it is pretty evident to me they play an important role.

This is the experience that makes me think a lot about it: use 2 similar tanks with the same dinoflagellate thriving (let’s take Amphidinium carterae as an example).

- To one tank add a large amount of carbon;

- To the second add large amount of carbon AND heterotrophic bacteria (specially the ones that have previously shown good results);

By doing so many users demonstrated that the first tank evolves as if fuel were added to the fire.

On the second, dinoflagellates are pretty suppressed, specially when a bacterial bloom is noticed…

To this date I’ve not found scientific articles to test such hypothesis, but I’m aware the experience has many anecdotal reports.
 
BRS
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