white powdery spots

[rich nyc]

So my fish are in quarantine and I am doing protocol A. last night I did my second dose of prazi and now this morning I see fine white dots on my purple tang. I thought it was air bubbles but it is not. I dont necessarily want to redo the internal parasite treatment as I think all treatments are harsh but I do know I will need to start copper. How many days should I wait before starting coppersafe? tia, Rich
any help appreciated
@Humblefish
@melypr1985

i am worried looking at the pictorial. probably more like velvet

 

[Gweeds1980]

So my fish are in quarantine and I am doing protocol A. last night I did my second dose of prazi and now this morning I see fine white dots on my purple tang. I thought it was air bubbles but it is not. I dont necessarily want to redo the internal parasite treatment as I think all treatments are harsh but I do know I will need to start copper. How many days should I wait before starting coppersafe? tia, Rich
any help appreciated
@Humblefish
@melypr1985

i am worried looking at the pictorial. probably more like velvet

Pics would be great, if it's confirmed as velvet can you get CP? Better than copper as you can get to therapeutic level instantly.

If it has to be copper, ramp up to therapeutic levels over 24 hours if it's velvet...

What other fish are in there? Anything copper sensitive?

If you're concerned it is velvet, then get pics up asap for a positive ID... you need to move quickly.

 

[rich nyc]

i tried taking pictures but he is moving way to fast and i have airstones in there so hard to see. I have a flasher wrasse so I think cp is out. would u do a quick water change before running copper or let both go since i have not gotten full prazi

 

[rich nyc]

i tried taking pictures but he is moving way to fast and i have airstones in there so hard to see. I have a flasher wrasse so I think cp is out. would u do a quick water change before running copper or let both go since i have not gotten full prazi

Air bubbles make it hard to see. First I thought it was air bubbles but looks like fine white powder.

 

[Gweeds1980]

i tried taking pictures but he is moving way to fast and i have airstones in there so hard to see. I have a flasher wrasse so I think cp is out. would u do a quick water change before running copper or let both go since i have not gotten full prazi

Ah ok, yes the flasher will mean CP is out... as is ramping copper up quickly!

Can't make out anything on the pic I'm afraid! Other symptoms? Flashing on rocks, swimming into flow for long periods, hiding from light? Also, how big are these spots? Salt grain size or fine dust? (Could you count them If you had to, or are they too small?) If it's fine dust, is it on fins or just around the head / gills area? Is the purple still eating?

This should help get an ID... depending on answers could be lymph, brook, velvet or ich at this stage and with CP out and copper dubious with the wrasse too, we need to be sure of an ID.

If he starts to go downhill, a FW dip will buy time.

Jumping on copper with the wrasse in there is dangerous, particularly if ramping dosage up quickly. If it's velvet, daily FW baths over the first 4 days whilst you ramp copper slowly may be the best bet.

 

[rich nyc]

they are fine white dots

 

[ngoodermuth]

I've raised copper (cupramine) over 48 hours with wrasses, I wouldn't suggest doing it much faster than that.

A freshwater dip, followed by an acriflavine bath, should give you enough time to get the copper up safely.

Read here, post #2 on emergency treatment:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

 

[rich nyc]

I don’t have acriflavine. Just did fresh water dip water change and will start copper safe

 

[rich nyc]

I

Will dose copper safe in 3 days. Started now

 

[jeff williams]

Here's my .02 on raising cu levels fast. If it's velvet and you you don't raise it fast all your fish could die to raise it slowly because of one sensetive fish and risk the others is silly

 

[Gweeds1980]

Here's my .02 on raising cu levels fast. If it's velvet and you you don't raise it fast all your fish could die to raise it slowly because of one sensetive fish and risk the others is silly

Hence why we combine with FW or acriflavine dips... that will knock out up to 90% of the parasites attached and buy time. That way you can raise cu slowly, whilst still doing the best for the infected fish.

 

[rich nyc]

ugh. thanks. my flasher wrasse died. I guess I will continue to raise as is now. so sad

 

[4FordFamily]

Looks/sounds like velvet to me, but hard to tell for sure with those photos. Copper and quickly is my recommendation!

 

[Gweeds1980]

ugh. thanks. my flasher wrasse died. I guess I will continue to raise as is now. so sad

Real shame... get copper up asap now.

 

[jeff williams]

Sorry to hear the wrasse died.

Hence why we combine with FW or acriflavine dips... that will knock out up to 90% of the parasites attached and buy time. That way you can raise cu slowly, whilst still doing the best for the infected fish.

I understand the reasons for the baths and dips but let me explain my method for ramping cu up fast. Cupramine for example is therapeutic @.35 you only need to ramp it up quickly until this level is reached and then give the fish 24 hrs and slowly increase to .5 ppm. I dont think some people understand the fast ramp up method and think they need to hit .5 ppm in 24-48 hrs, .5ppm in 24-48 hrs would be ideal but I do think this is where the fish deaths are most like to occur.

 

[Humblefish]

Here's my .02 on raising cu levels fast. If it's velvet and you you don't raise it fast all your fish could die to raise it slowly because of one sensetive fish and risk the others is silly

With velvet, it takes 48 hrs before trophonts drop off and dinospores can begin emerging from encysted tomonts. With ich, you have 72 hrs.

This 48-72 hr window only applies from the moment you add an infected specimen to an empty QT. The timing is important because copper/CP/hypo has only been proven to target the free swimming stage, which is what tomonts release. In-tank treatments will not eradicate any other stage and they provide no direct benefit to the sick fish. Only FW dips/medicated baths can provide temporary relief for "surface" parasites (velvet, brook) and worms (flukes, turbellarians) only.

More info: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-copper-window.294484/

 

[jeff williams]

So I'm not sure if by this post you agree or disagree with raising cu fast!

 

[Humblefish]

So I'm not sure if by this post you agree or disagree with raising cu fast!

I'm saying if you put a fish with velvet or ich in QT; then you have 48 or 72 hours, respectively, to raise copper to the minimum therapeutic level. To shield the fish from reinfection from attacking free swimmers.

With velvet, being able to take 48 hrs vs. 24 hrs to raise the Cu to therapeutic can be a real difference maker, especially when treating a Cu sensitive species.

 

[jeff williams]

I'm saying if you put a fish with velvet or ich in QT; then you have 48 or 72 hours, respectively, to raise copper to the minimum therapeutic level. To shield the fish from reinfection from attacking free swimmers.

With velvet, being able to take 48 hrs vs. 24 hrs to raise the Cu to therapeutic can be a real difference maker, especially when treating a Cu sensitive species.

Yes I agreed, we're both saying the same thing. My post about bringing cu up slowly being silly was because of this comment:
Ah ok, yes the flasher will mean CP is out... as is ramping copper up quickly! "No disrespect to the poster intended "
I realize with a wrasse CP IS NOT AN OPTION I just didn't want the OP think cu could not be brought up to thereputic levels fast in 24-48 hrs an risk losing other fish just because 1 fish ,the wrasse is sensitive. As I mentioned in 48 hrs you can get cupramine up to .35 ppm safely then slow down the ramp up wait 24 hrs and start bringing cu up to .5 ppm over a few days. Giving fw dips to help during the first 48 hrs. There's really no reason to give fw dips past the 48 hrs with the method I outlined above however an Acriflavin bath after 48 hrs could be beneficial to prevent secondary infections.
I'll explain the fw dip not being used after 48 hrs theory just to clarify.
If the fish is given a fw dip and cupramine is at .35ppm in 48 hrs and maintain at.35 ppm the fish is safe from free swimmers and any additional fw dips shouldn't be necessary also it cuts out additional stress of a fw dip.