Why a fallow period will sometimes fail

[chicago]

I am just wondering.. would this also apply to a QT copper tank... is it possible the Copper ..Proper Copper levels are not reached due to areas like shown in the photo.. bottom corner of the tupper ware sand hold vat LOL

 

[MnFish1]

I am just wondering.. would this also apply to a QT copper tank... is it possible the Copper ..Proper Copper levels are not reached due to areas like shown in the photo.. bottom corner of the tupper ware sand hold vat LOL

I think thats why people usually dont keep sand vats in QT tanks - and if they do - they clean them between fish. But - I would think that even the water in the sand vat would have the same copper concentration as the regular water. depending on how deep it is. The one interesting thing about this study from @Humblefish is that it definitely suggests that (as many people seem to do) putting a piece of live rock from the display may not be a good idea (or transferring filters)

 

[chicago]

Yep .. I have kept this area of gravel just for those wrasses that need it. With Hanna checker and since the tank has been Qt Cooper for there is no shift in Cooper levels.

 

[Shooter6]

Stir up that sand bed every few days then you know for sure theres no anerobic or low copper level areas.

 

[Kyl]

Man, this hobby..

 

[Skep18]

Great find. As @Brew12 said, always getting more interesting... Just even more reason to continue to practice and develop good QT practices/processes.

 

[Subsea]

@Paul B and I have known for many years that ich could survive longer than what the hobby scientist were saying. In the early 70’s, research papers read 14 days, but when I read the details of the research papers, 90% read “most will hatch in X days. It only takes one to multiply. My Eureka Moment came when a 1000G system with no introduction of fish for two years was subjected to stress during a power outage. Ich showed up everywhere. I now rely on natural auto immune system and encourage that with live food.

Removing stress and quality live food prevents & cures more fish than all the medications combined that are thrown into reef tanks.

 

[MnFish1]

@Paul B and I have known for many years that ich could survive longer than what the hobby scientist were saying. In the early 70’s, research papers read 14 days, but when I read the details of the research papers, 90% read “most will hatch in X days. It only takes one to multiply. My Eureka Moment came when a 1000G system with no introduction of fish for two years was subjected to stress during a power outage. Ich showed up everywhere. I now rely on natural auto immune system and encourage that with live food.

Removing stress and quality live food prevents & cures more fish than all the medications combined that are thrown into reef tanks.

First - when you had your power outage - did all the fish survive?

Second question - If one feeds high quality 'non-live' food - but with the same nutritional value - do you think you would have he same results.

Third - CI may not that much of a problem - especially when fish have been exposed before and a low density stocking. How do you think your fish would deal with velvet, brook, etc. using this method if an infected fish would be put into your tank.

I think it has been known for decades that CI can live in an aquarium if fish are left in - perhaps indefinitely The mortality/morbidity from CI happens when the parasite burden is so high that even immune/resistant fish cannot fight it off. Levels in a tank can be kept low by filtration, UV Ozone, low stocking density, etc etc.

Here is something else I'd like to get your opinion on - I have been thinking another way to decrease CI in a tank is 'high flow' - that prevents the particles that fall off the fish from encysting on the sand bed/rock. Do you think that plays a role?

 

[Subsea]

First - when you had your power outage - did all the fish survive?

Second question - If one feeds high quality 'non-live' food - but with the same nutritional value - do you think you would have he same results.

Third - CI may not that much of a problem - especially when fish have been exposed before and a low density stocking. How do you think your fish would deal with velvet, brook, etc. using this method if an infected fish would be put into your tank.

I think it has been known for decades that CI can live in an aquarium if fish are left in - perhaps indefinitely The mortality/morbidity from CI happens when the parasite burden is so high that even immune/resistant fish cannot fight it off. Levels in a tank can be kept low by filtration, UV Ozone, low stocking density, etc etc.

Here is something else I'd like to get your opinion on - I have been thinking another way to decrease CI in a tank is 'high flow' - that prevents the particles that fall off the fish from encysting on the sand bed/rock. Do you think that plays a role?

1. All fish survived.

2. At that time, I intermittently feed live food. I think high quality food helps the immune system. While I think that healthy live bacteria in gut cavity of live food helps auto immune system, I have no proof other than my experiences and what I have read.

3. In 48 years of reefing, I have never experienced those other pathogens that I know of.

Interesting that you asked about cyst of ich finding a good place to host. Today, on a feature article on when 72 qt fails, ich incubation period has been proven in the lab to go dormant in low & no oxygen zones. Someone posted that ich would seek out fertile places to reproduce. I almost chocked when I read that. As if the cyst had fins & wings to propel itself.

Yes, for certain, ich cyst can be swept around in currents. A diatom filter would remove some.

 

[Subsea]

“Here is something else I'd like to get your opinion on - I have been thinking another way to decrease CI in a tank is 'high flow' - that prevents the particles that fall off the fish from encysting on the sand bed/rock. Do you think that plays a role?”

@MnFish1

I was discussing predator prey relationships in a food web conversation on another thread and as I pondered on things, I had a Eureka moment and two thoughts intersected. What eats cyst in their dormat stages? Assume cyst are in substrate. Do predators graze on them? I observe Tangs & drawf angels often grazing in substrate. Are they eating cyst? I know sailfin algae blennie grazes in substrate for more than algae. I have seen him catch pods. So, if these fish are eating mum from the substrate, how many cyst are they consuming. Also, if cyst are kept in suspension will that help predatation of them. We need some bug doctors to answer those questions.

 

[laverda]

I would imagine sand sifting gobies would probably eat them.

 

[MnFish1]

“Here is something else I'd like to get your opinion on - I have been thinking another way to decrease CI in a tank is 'high flow' - that prevents the particles that fall off the fish from encysting on the sand bed/rock. Do you think that plays a role?”

@MnFish1

I was discussing predator prey relationships in a food web conversation on another thread and as I pondered on things, I had a Eureka moment and two thoughts intersected. What eats cyst in their dormat stages? Assume cyst are in substrate. Do predators graze on them? I observe Tangs & drawf angels often grazing in substrate. Are they eating cyst? I know sailfin algae blennie grazes in substrate for more than algae. I have seen him catch pods. So, if these fish are eating mum from the substrate, how many cyst are they consuming. Also, if cyst are kept in suspension will that help predatation of them. We need some bug doctors to answer those questions.

I have no clue - I assume it would - (keeping them in suspension)

 

[Hot2na]

Good news: it worked for me....Had one tank with fish that had flukes...took them out,treated...put them back in in 4 weeks...no more flukes,flashing or scratching..4 weeks fallow worked.
FWIW: I treated the affected fish by just putting them in a tank with 1.012 salinity for 4 weeks...no drugs and plenty of fresh seafood soaked in garlic..a little live blackworms when I could get them...thats all...!

 

[f793wm]

We've all seen claims of ich, velvet, etc. returning after a 76 day fallow period. (For anyone wondering what a fallow period means click here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/)

Oftentimes, a fallow period failure is due to human error: The sick fish weren't treated long enough or the treatment itself wasn't done properly, cross contamination via wet hands or equipment, aerosol transmission (more info). It is also possible that undiscovered strains of ich (and other diseases) exist; ones with a prolonged life cycle that exceeds what we know to be true from scientific research. However, there is also this possibility to consider:

Dormancy induced by a hypoxic environment in tomonts of Cryptocaryon irritans, a parasitic ciliate of marine teleosts


Highlights from the study:

• This study demonstrates that tomonts of Cryptocaryon irritans become dormant in hypoxic environments.
• Dormant tomonts resume development in oxic environments at any developmental stages.
• We examined tomont viability following variable sequences of oxic and hypoxic conditions.
• Dormancy in hypoxic environments may be key to the autumn outbreaks of cryptocaryoniasis in floating net cages in temperate waters.

So what does this mean for us and our fallow aquariums? Primarily, the study showed that an ich tomont (the "egg stage" which encysts to corals, inverts, rocks, etc.) can go dormant if the protomont crawls into a hypoxic (low oxygen) environment or anaerobic (no oxygen) region of your DT just before encysting. Examples of this include under your sand bed (especially a DSB), inside a non-porous rock, any "no flow" region of a canister or other aquarium filter. The study also demonstrated that once returned to an oxygen rich environment, these once dormant tomonts resumed their development and released theronts (free swimmers which seek out fish to infect.) How long can it take for a dormant tomont in a hypoxic environment to suddenly be exposed to an oxic (oxygen rich) environment? The world may never know?!

So what can you do to eliminate low oxygen areas of your DT during a fallow period?

1. Take any canister or enclosed filters offline, and sterilize them with bleach. Without fish to foul the water, your DT will be fine with just rock/sand for filtration and good water circulation.
2. Speaking of circulation, crank up those pumps for maximum flow & gas exchange throughout the aquarium. (Don't forget to add a pump down in the sump.)
3. Blow out your rocks (using a powerhead) and vacuum the sand during water changes whilst going fallow. This will "stir things up" and provide free oxygen to those areas.

How can I setup my Display Tank to be "hypoxic proof" just in case I ever have to go fallow?

1. Only use filtration with an open top (like a sump), and avoid canister filters and other filters which may contain anaerobic regions. If needed, take these offline if ever having to go fallow.
2. Use just a light layer of sand; the deeper it is the more likely tomonts can get "trapped" down under there.
   
3. Never have sand out of reach (i.e. under a rock) in case you need to vacuum it during a fallow period.
   
4. Only use very porous rock which will allow plenty of flow (and oxygen) to pass through.

More information on Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) can be found here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/

I believe this just happened to me transferring a 2" DSB from a 150 gl tank that had been sitting fallow (ich and velvet) for 70 days to a bigger 215gl tank (also added more new livesand to maintain 2" DSB)

On the 76th day all fish were restocked into new 215gl. All the original fish had been treated successfully in QT. some new purchases were treated, but a couple of the new fish were just observed and appeared disease free after two skin scrapes and examine under a microscope they looked clean and healthy so opted not to medicate.

with 2/3 weeks, 3 tangs, 2 angel fish and 1 trigger exhibited beginning signs of ich (no sign of stress, no change in appetite, present of theronts on the tail fin visible under a microscope). Again, all of these were fine in QT.

All fish (even those not infected) in tank were removed and are being treated for 30 days with Copper Power.

I'm 98% sure that dormant ich was in the hypoxic/aneorobic areas of the sandbed and resumed development after I stirred up the sandbed.

I plan too:
-remove liverock
-stir up the sandbed throroughly
-go hyposaline on the water
-replace the live rock
-wait a week and perform a 50% water change
-let sit fallow for 76 days

 

[MnFish1]

I believe this just happened to me transferring a 2" DSB from a 150 gl tank that had been sitting fallow (ich and velvet) for 70 days to a bigger 215gl tank (also added more new livesand to maintain 2" DSB)

On the 76th day all fish were restocked into new 215gl. All the original fish had been treated successfully in QT. some new purchases were treated, but a couple of the new fish were just observed and appeared disease free after two skin scrapes and examine under a microscope they looked clean and healthy so opted not to medicate.

with 2/3 weeks, 3 tangs, 2 angel fish and 1 trigger exhibited beginning signs of ich (no sign of stress, no change in appetite, present of theronts on the tail fin visible under a microscope). Again, all of these were fine in QT.

All fish (even those not infected) in tank were removed and are being treated for 30 days with Copper Power.

I'm 98% sure that dormant ich was in the hypoxic/aneorobic areas of the sandbed and resumed development after I stirred up the sandbed.

I plan too:
-remove liverock
-stir up the sandbed throroughly
-go hyposaline on the water
-replace the live rock
-wait a week and perform a 50% water change
-let sit fallow for 76 days

Curious - since you're going to get new rock - why not just make completely sure by removing everything - sterilizing the tank with bleach and starting over? If there is dormant CI in your sand - hypo salinity won't likely help (the dormant stage). If your going to do a 76 day fallow period - why not just do a cycle during that time with the new rock?

 

[f793wm]

Curious - since you're going to get new rock - why not just make completely sure by removing everything - sterilizing the tank with bleach and starting over? If there is dormant CI in your sand - hypo salinity won't likely help (the dormant stage). If your going to do a 76 day fallow period - why not just do a cycle during that time with the new rock?

keeping the same rock, thought it made sense to remove it while i stir the sandbed, that way I get all the sand stirred. I have a lot of rock. (200lbs)
(also I have a few crabs and snails, so removing the rock helps me to locate them all and remove them.)

 

[MnFish1]

keeping the same rock, thought it made sense to remove it while i stir the sandbed, that way I get all the sand stirred. I have a lot of rock. (200lbs)

Yes - I thought with your steps the way they were - that you were also going to replace the rock. here is something though. There are a lot of 'low oxygen' places in live rock as well as the sand bed. Were you going to clean it as well? BTW - Not to worry you - but - im not sure that stirring the sand is enough to make sure that any dormant CI is going to be activated that quickly - and not stay dormant.

Likely things being likely - I would bet that it was the new fish - even though they had negative skin scrapings that brought the CI in - rather than your rock/sand. But either way good luck the next time around...

 

[Cell]

I find it hard to believe cross contamination isnt the culprit in a lot of cases where something pop backs up in a DT after treatment in QT. It's just so hard not to cross contaminate unless you literally have the QT tank in a separate room with a completely separate set of everything from equipment to food source. I've worked in a lab using sterile technique for 10+ years and I still catch myself all the time when qt'ing. It takes a great amount of discipline.

 

[MnFish1]

I find it hard to believe cross contamination isnt the culprit in a lot of cases where something pop backs up in a DT after treatment in QT. It's just so hard not to cross contaminate unless you literally have the QT tank in a separate room with a completely separate set of everything from equipment to food source. I've worked in a lab using sterile technique for 10+ years and I still catch myself all the time when qt'ing. It takes a great amount of discipline.

You're probably correct - but - that said - @HotRocks and @4FordFamily recently had and issue where fish got velvet - and they are both compulsive and did not think this is the case. Seachem (call their tech support and ask) - also states they have seen resistant velvet (heard from users - mostly LFS) - though they have not seen it in their lab. So - the bottom line - IMHO - based on what I have read/called on/etc - 14 days at 2 ppm copper is not enough - a longer duration is needed to be 100 % sure. secondly - an observation of <90 days can still allow velvet into your tank (reference the national aquarium - Baltimore)

 

[Cell]

Yeah, there are some obvious exceptions and those that have built up credibility over time deserve it. I wasn't referring to any particular person or case reported on R2R if that's what my comment sounded like. The thought of a drug resistant velvet widely spreading is somewhat terrifying, yet with the fast progression and mortality rate as high as it is when left untreated, it would be somewhat self-containing. There's the bright side.