Why Is Lineage Sooooooooooooo Important?

[Wy Renegade]

Linage for a coral,is the same thing as a dog.All my dogs are pure breeds,I can tell you that my 2 ****zu are from champion blood back in China.My Chihuahua is a pure breed,and,well,obviously,her blood is back in Mexico.My Pug is pure breed,and she is also able to be traced back with blood in China.So,by telling you where my dogs come from,you can look at their blood(s) and you can tell if they are a champion dog or not.All of my dogs have got champion blood in them other than the Chihuahua.Its kinda nice to know where the dogs have come from,the same way I like to know where my family is from.

So,with corals,its the same thing.I have had many corals that can be traced back to the originator.Which is kinda nice to know that I have the true linaged original piece of coral.Not a knock of that "Joe-Blow" down the street ordered in wholesale and is trying to make money off of by lying to me.So by having the ligit linage piece of coral,you are able to have a form of security when you go to sell the piece or trade the piece.

Actually, its not the same thing at all. With your dogs, you have a pedigree or papers that are maintained by an independent thrid party that prove that your dogs are indeed from that particular blood line. In the case of corals, this is not true at all. You have nothing at all, other than the word of those you bought it from that the piece you are purchasing is actually the piece in question.

you (those being negative) guys are mixing up two things-

lineage and price on corals.

Yes and no, lineage and price are seperate and distinct, but names and lineage are also seperate and distinct. Anyone can buy a coral from an LFS or individual and then say, hey these are "XXX" and start selling it as such.

Lineage matters when : trying to find an exact coral specimen- this has come about thanks to the glory of the internets where instead of us just seeing our own stuff, or stuff at the LFS, we're not sharing pictures across the country of ONE exact coral specimen. When someone wants to purchase this coral, they want to know they're getting that EXACT coral specimen. Not a similar one, not a nearly close one, they want THAT exact coral they've seen. Why they want it is up to them- calling someone stupid for how they enjoy their hobby is really not needed, and typically shows off more about the person doing the name calling than the person who's having a good time. One reason people like buying lineaged coral is as simple as knowing how a coral will look in their tank. Thanks again to the interwebs, I can go find a picture of a Howard Johnson Spaceship Chalice and see how it looks in a variety of conditions and tanks, based upon all the other people out there who have purchased it. There's more reasons, but at the end of the day, that's a basic one.

And again, how is it that you know for sure that all those pictures you looked at of that coral in all those tanks and under all those conditions are the same piece? The simple truth is, you don't. Names IMO are a very handy tool for us to use, lineage with corals IMO is absolutely worthless. Look at Envy Orange for example; how many people have a polyp from the original colony that sold for over $400 per polyp? How many people on the other hand have a nice OPE that looked similar to Envy Orange, so they started calling them that and started selling them as such? I can tell you that two of the individuals that have pictures up on coralpedia of Envy Orange, most likely never ever bought or aquired one of the original polyps, but theirs are still Envy Orange for all intents and purposes.

Just a question, as I swear I'm neutral on this issue - if I like it, I buy it.

Anyway, how exactly does someone prove that a coral came from a particular vendor. I mean, I have several pieces from Reeffarmers where my name is still on the webpage as having received my order, so that one works. But I also have some corals that came directly from a vendor where I have no such verifiable proof. So I know who I got them from, but how exactly do I go about 'proving' it?

Exactly! Bottom line, one can't.

 

[dream coral]

Well here is my two cents as both a hobbyist and a vendor. It’s very simple. First as a hobbyist. It would be like walking into a Lexus store and paying big money for what you thought was a Lexus and drives home and show your friends and they look at you and say no you bought a Toyota. So now you paid big money for the real deal but what you got is a look alike or a bad knock off. It burns everyone of us.
Now as a vendor or retailer. Now I do understand that the creatures we all love “way too much†grow in a vast beautiful ocean and are spread thought out the world. But some are very unique for instance the beautiful My Miami and many others. Look at it this way you receive a 5000.00 shipment and yes they are all “beautiful in their own way†and at best maybe 5% is truly unique and you lose another 15% then it comes to market and you try to recoup some of your investment not always wining. So we all know this is not an in expanse hobby I think you should get what you are sold if it’s not from the same colony than is it the real deal????????????? Am I right or wrong????????

 

[Wy Renegade]

Wy Renegade/Randy mentioned a database that's in the works to provide documentation of exactly what you're mentioning- in essence a neutral party that will track where corals have come from so you could use it as a form of documentation. Similar to when people buy art, antiques, etc- it all basically boils down to an outside party putting their reputation on the line that the claim is verifiable and/or authentic.

Actually no, it fell through due to a general lack of interest by hobbiests in general. The site failed for other reasons, but the database never ever got off the ground.

There is somthing that I do,and I know it sounds stupid,I have a filing cabnit of shipping labels.I also save order forms,and I file those as well,I have a filing cabnit that I keep coral linage in,its very ligit and like prison files.Ever file I have,is a picture of the originators colony.

Again, doesn't really prove any lineage beyond the one person you're buying from, and unless you were in the room when the person cut the frag, it doesn't even prove that. This in court would be what is called circumstantial evidence, and it would be thrown out.

I like playing DA with ya- so I'll be a jerk and say: if I buy a coral from you, and watch you cut it, I can feel positive that its lineaged to you. Beyond that- you're right, it comes down to the reliability of the person/vendor you're dealing with, and the reputation they hope to maintain. But that'll change as the hobby continues to grow- I'm positive at some point we will see "authenticators" similar to people who document antique's provide verification of lineage claims.

Saying it doesn't make you a jerk - it just shows that you feel strongly about the other side of the issue - there is always two sides to any issue (otherwise, it wouldn't be an issue LOL). Besides, I like it when you debate with me, makes me tax my brain. I'll grant you the 1st point, only for those cases in question however, where the person you watch doing the cutting is actually the originator of the coral in question. Otherwise its worthless. Authenticators at this point and time would only be valid for new named corals, as there would be no way to prove lineage on any of the older corals that are already wide spread.

Brian, I love you

*sniff*

Me too, just because I enjoy a good debate.

 

[turbo21]

Personally i dont trust lineage, because unless you know these people you are buying from you dont really know where it came from.

It just amazes me, that one day someone posts check out the aqua blue hornets that i got. I Got them from Mr Aqua Blue Hornet personally. Then 2 weeks later 300 posts are made across the boards selling red hornets. No coral grows that fast and gets spread out that quick. Now if i am buying from a vendor that i respect and has a good rep. (Aquaworld PSC Name Drop------cause there my local shop) i dont mind paying for a lineaged coral. But it still goes down the line. Does my local store trust the dealers they get their stuff from? and who did they get it from.

Unless their is a third party that steps in, you will never be able to prove you have a truly lineaged coral. Maybe if we start getting Steve Tyree to take a pic of Himeself with the frag and a picture of yourself being there (like you see with autographs). It might help

Maybe the top coral collectors should develop a plug with a hologram and serial# on it to help with this process. It has to start with the corals originators

 

[reefpeeper]

just give up on this topic

 

[sf_ramsden]

just give up on this topic

+1!!

Why does this topic continue to come up... Those who don't want lineaged/proven corals and pay a few more $$$ for them, then don't. The best way to be able to afford the higher end pieces is a group buy (get some friends together, buy some good stuff, grow it out then split it up).

There are plenty of nice looking corals you can get for not too much money. Go to pretty much any LFS and I am sure they will have some pieces for $10, $20, etc. I did this when I first started out... I roamed fish stores weekly, and waited for nice pieces to finally hit the $10 frag tank, bought them and grew them out.

Nowadays I prefer to buy pieces that are proven to keep their colors and grow in captivity. I have seen it too many times where an awesome looking wild colony comes into a LFS and just melts away days later. I spend more money on the higher end pieces because in the end, I end up losing less pieces. I buy from people I trust because I am less likely to bring disease/a pest to my tank.

 

[mdb_talon]

Here is another example

Say im an autograph collector. I buy Ringo Starr's autographed personal jacket for $1500, I want there to be proff that it is real,otherwise it has 0 collector value.....Exact same thing applies to coral collectors.....

If i collected autographs(which i dont) i would be collecting history and an attatchment to that person out of respect or admiration not a piece of paper and some ink. i respect people like jason fox or the vendors on our site, but i sure as heck not gonna pay 10 times more if i can find a similar coral i like just as much for 10% of the cost. To me that is silly,but if someone has that much admiration and gets dreamy eyes for jason fox then more power to them.

As for me the only time i find lineage useful is when i buying a small frag that may not look like a mature colony or occasionally when buying online it is hard to really get a good appreciation of a coral.

 

[drainbamage]

I can tell you this much from being a highend collector... There is no money to be made in this hobby by being a hobbyist or collector... I buy what I want just like you do and if I'm gonna 500$ for a eye of crazy fox you bet your butt I wanna know where it came from there is plenty of fakes out there!!!! I don't expect to get all money back but I do expect to at least get 50 percent and I can't get that if I don't have the family tree that points to jfox... It's bad enough we have to go by word of mouth ad the price derives of it but it's all we got for now... Someone or something needs to be done to have more accurate info and making this more real and acceptable for everyone... I am personally tired of people getting a piece from a Lfs and chopping it and selling for bookoo bucks because it looks like "insert piece" that's where the linage comes into play... Yes all roads lead to the ocean but if these ind didn't claim such and such names etc it would be more affordable for me and you...;)

Ironic- people get disgruntled over lineage because it means nothing with all "fake" options out there, which is sort of exactly what lineage is supposed to prevent. Same in any collector hobby- you have to trace to source to prevent fakes (if a painting is identical in every way to the Mona Lisa, is it a fake or just an identical? It IS after all just paint on canvas, so an identical piece wouldn't be a fake, would it? But it is- because THE Mona Lisa was hand-painted by Davinci, making anything that wasn't painted by him (not lineaged to him) a 'fake'.) For now this area of the hobby is in its teenage years, eventually the kinks will get worked out provided the high-end market continues (which it will, there will always be more people who want one piece of coral than there will be coral to go around,) and at some point we'll have our own version of "coral authenticators."

Brian, I love you

*sniff*

likewise my friend, likewise :bigsmile:


Someone else commented that the database people were coming back around- it wasn't you and can't remember the person, but I remain hopeful something will happen. If not, I see a niche that will get filled in some way/shape/form soon enough. For now it's a can of worms - the 'fake' sellers have no risk to prevent them from selling mis-labelled items except to hurt their reputation. It's why I prefer to only deal with other people who I know equally value lineage and wouldn't pass off 'fakes', peoples such as SexyCorals, Ian/Reefodyssey, the WWC crew, Troylee, etc (not saying our other sponsors would do such a thing, but these are people who I've dealt with and know wouldn't hurt their reputation falsely labeling lineage.) In such case, the lineage is only of value to those who value it- but that's always the case. From the outside, there's no value to lineage, it's a non-intrinsic value that's only relative to those who believe in its value- just like U.S. Currency (no gold-standard means currency is only worth what we believe the currency is worth.)

And I just like debating, so I'm glad you're around to put up with me Randy :tongue:

Personally i dont trust lineage, because unless you know these people you are buying from you dont really know where it came from.

It just amazes me, that one day someone posts check out the aqua blue hornets that i got. I Got them from Mr Aqua Blue Hornet personally. Then 2 weeks later 300 posts are made across the boards selling red hornets. No coral grows that fast and gets spread out that quick. Now if i am buying from a vendor that i respect and has a good rep. (Aquaworld PSC Name Drop------cause there my local shop) i dont mind paying for a lineaged coral. But it still goes down the line. Does my local store trust the dealers they get their stuff from? and who did they get it from.

Unless their is a third party that steps in, you will never be able to prove you have a truly lineaged coral. Maybe if we start getting Steve Tyree to take a pic of Himeself with the frag and a picture of yourself being there (like you see with autographs). It might help

Maybe the top coral collectors should develop a plug with a hologram and serial# on it to help with this process. It has to start with the corals originators

Agreed- until there's a method to prevent 'fakers' it will simply happen. That's why I highly value when vendors label things as "similar to." Obviously the ocean holds more than one or two unique pieces of a coral, so vendors who discover similar pieces but make it obvious their piece is NOT so and so pieces deserve recognition for doing so. Similarly those who 'pass-off' fakes as if they were lineaged to a certain person deserve negative-recognition for what they are doing. However- lineage is not the same as naming- so if a person also finds a colony of Red Hornets- as long as they are only labelling the color variety (the red hornets) and not the name (Genghis Khan's) then they are doing no 'wrong.'

just give up on this topic

It's not going to go away anytime soon I fear- as long as things command high prices you'll continue to see the argument where people are essentially deriding the price and finding excuses to do so. It's one of those where if we were all more civilized, we'd ascribe to our mother's advice (if you don't have something nice to say, just don't say it) but because the items simply ARE highly desirable (they're pretty after all!) people will continue to try and find solace in not having those pieces by deriding those who do.

 

[drainbamage]

If i collected autographs(which i dont) i would be collecting history and an attatchment to that person out of respect or admiration not a piece of paper and some ink. i respect people like jason fox or the vendors on our site, but i sure as heck not gonna pay 10 times more if i can find a similar coral i like just as much for 10% of the cost. To me that is silly,but if someone has that much admiration and gets dreamy eyes for jason fox then more power to them.

As for me the only time i find lineage useful is when i buying a small frag that may not look like a mature colony or occasionally when buying online it is hard to really get a good appreciation of a coral.

what you just said you do is what you're deriding in the first part of what you said- I'm confused. Or do you think that what others are doing is somehow different than what you use lineage for?

 

[Troylee]

As long as there's jealously there will be linage... It's more bragging rights than anything imho...
Insert TL's buddy here *_______* that's for you db..;)

 

[mdb_talon]

what you just said you do is what you're deriding in the first part of what you said- I'm confused. Or do you think that what others are doing is somehow different than what you use lineage for?

Lol not sure where you get that from. If you noticed i was directly responding to someone who compared it to collecting autographs. Are you saying people want legit autographs to ensure it looks the same when it grows up?

 

[650-IS350]

They're all the same corals taken from the SAME ocean, only difference is some individuals get their hands on those pieces first then slap their name on em. then on a later time others of the same coral start coming in but are knocked down since it didn't come from the first individual to claim DIBS on the naming of that coral and therefore that coral is not worth as much as that first persons. lol at that thought, SMH. corals of the same type get collected from different locations of the ocean.

 

[drainbamage]

If i collected autographs(which i dont) i would be collecting history and an attatchment to that person out of respect or admiration not a piece of paper and some ink. i respect people like jason fox or the vendors on our site, but i sure as heck not gonna pay 10 times more if i can find a similar coral i like just as much for 10% of the cost. To me that is silly,but if someone has that much admiration and gets dreamy eyes for jason fox then more power to them.

As for me the only time i find lineage useful is when i buying a small frag that may not look like a mature colony or occasionally when buying online it is hard to really get a good appreciation of a coral.

Lol not sure where you get that from. If you noticed i was directly responding to someone who compared it to collecting autographs. Are you saying people want legit autographs to ensure it looks the same when it grows up?

You're right, I didn't explain what I meant very well, sorry. What I meant was the way you use lineage is identical to the way most all of "us" people use lineage- to verify what a piece will look like. Yet you seemed to also be saying that "we" are using lineage to just worship a person. I was trying to say that's a contradiction- that you're actually using it for the same basic purpose as everyone, but seemingly looking down upon those who use it for that same way. If I misread, or if you were only saying those who collected lineaged corals for the sake of following a certain person were in that category, I again apologize for my mistaken comments.

As long as there's jealously there will be linage... It's more bragging rights than anything imho...
Insert TL's buddy here *_______* that's for you db..;)

yay! every thread is better with Lil' Lee

 

[mdb_talon]

You're right, I didn't explain what I meant very well, sorry. What I meant was the way you use lineage is identical to the way most all of "us" people use lineage- to verify what a piece will look like. Yet you seemed to also be saying that "we" are using lineage to just worship a person. I was trying to say that's a contradiction- that you're actually using it for the same basic purpose as everyone, but seemingly looking down upon those who use it for that same way. If I misread, or if you were only saying those who collected lineaged corals for the sake of following a certain person were in that category, I again apologize for my mistaken comments.



yay! every thread is better with Lil' Lee

No i do think you misunderstood me my reaction was a direct response to comparing it to autographs. even there i have nothing against those people(though i am sure my tone made it seem that way...just something i see as silly....but i have many(ie most) of my friends who think i am nuts as a grown man for collecting disney figurines(ya i probably should not admit that but point is i dont care if other people use lineage for any reason they want). For me in a general sense if two identical tank raised colonies are sitting in front of me i picking the cheaper one. I was just conceding that i do feel there can be concrete reasons for using lineage as well.

Whatever reason people do or do not use though to each their own. Only time it bothers me is when i see people getting clobbered on forums for calling their of a certain color by its commomly known name. In my opinion if they claim no lineage and dont use a modifier it is fine and makes for easier communication among reefers. For example if someone has what looks exactly like a mummy eye chalice and they call it that without any proof of lineage i have no problem as long as they are honest and dont call it "tyree mummy eye for example". I mean how many of us have palys that we call red people eaters(of which many morphs). Can i not call it red people eater since i did not make up the name and have no lineage? Legally i believe i can i cant find it in the trademark lookup....but will my fellow reefers shun me... from what i can tell not at all. That is until instead it a coral that is the latest "in" frag and it steps on xyz vendor's toes...even if i am upfront and honest that it has no lineage to xyz original.

 

[Cuong L]

Picture this. You buy a small size flamethrower for $200 with no lineage thinking, owe it's the same as the other BPC Flamethrowers being sold for $350. It's small so you think, maybe the flames will pop up later, looks the same now. Plus, the BPC Flamethrower doesn't have blue flames on all the eyes. Then you hear it's a slow grower and takes years to grow. So you spot feed it daily hoping it would grow faster.

Two years later. Auughhh s---!!!:beat_shot::beat_shot::beat_shot: I guess I should've bought the real one with lineage from a reputable vendor.

 

[Troylee]

This is exact thing happened to me with that said coral....:( did you read my thread??? Ahahahahah

Picture this. You buy a small size flamethrower for $200 with no lineage thinking, owe it's the same as the other BPC Flamethrowers being sold for $350. It's small so you think, maybe the flames will pop up later, looks the same now. Plus, the BPC Flamethrower doesn't have blue flames on all the eyes. Then you hear it's a slow grower and takes years to grow. So you spot feed it daily hoping it would grow faster.

Two years later. Auughhh s---!!!:beat_shot::beat_shot::beat_shot: I guess I should've bought the real one with lineage from a reputable vendor.

 

[drainbamage]

No i do think you misunderstood me my reaction was a direct response to comparing it to autographs. even there i have nothing against those people(though i am sure my tone made it seem that way...just something i see as silly....but i have many(ie most) of my friends who think i am nuts as a grown man for collecting disney figurines(ya i probably should not admit that but point is i dont care if other people use lineage for any reason they want). For me in a general sense if two identical tank raised colonies are sitting in front of me i picking the cheaper one. I was just conceding that i do feel there can be concrete reasons for using lineage as well.

Whatever reason people do or do not use though to each their own. Only time it bothers me is when i see people getting clobbered on forums for calling their of a certain color by its commomly known name. In my opinion if they claim no lineage and dont use a modifier it is fine and makes for easier communication among reefers. For example if someone has what looks exactly like a mummy eye chalice and they call it that without any proof of lineage i have no problem as long as they are honest and dont call it "tyree mummy eye for example". I mean how many of us have palys that we call red people eaters(of which many morphs). Can i not call it red people eater since i did not make up the name and have no lineage? Legally i believe i can i cant find it in the trademark lookup....but will my fellow reefers shun me... from what i can tell not at all. That is until instead it a coral that is the latest "in" frag and it steps on xyz vendor's toes...even if i am upfront and honest that it has no lineage to xyz original.

Gotcha on the autograph thing! Sorry again, I realized when you responded I just misinterpreted or something (and I won't make fun of the disney figurines, I used to collect many things commonly called dorky, to each their own (though collecting corals is just as dorky probably :neutral: ))

Your second point/paragraph is very valid, and it's one I see people often confuse- Named Lineage corals (such as Genghis Kahn's Purple Plasma Zoa) and named corals (such as Purple Plasma Zoa's.)

The way lineage is meant to work (and does in things such as dogs, horses, etc) is to trace back to a specific item. In such cases, we're referring to Genghis Kahn as being the person those specific Zoa's came from (similar as a dog that came from a certain sire somewhere in his pedigree, lets say a Corgi that came from Sir Fluffalot.) Now opposite from that, there are those Purple Plasma Zoa's that are not GK's, but are identical/similar enough in coloration to still be called Purple Plasma Zoa's (such as a Corgi that is from a different bloodline than any Sir Fluffalot had to do with.) Here's where lineage is important- If you want the EXACT ones that GK had, you would want to buy from reputable sources that you believe (as Renegade points out, as for now it's all trust which is only worth what you choose to believe it is) are selling you ones that are actually from GK. If you don't care where they came from (for whatever reason) then you will be just as happy to buy the ones that a vendor simply has labelled Purple Plasma Zoa's.

Now the big mix-up: people who sell falsely, aka Knock-offs. Happens with purses, happens with disney figures, happens with anything and everything including chalices. As you said- if you're just looking for "similar enough" (in many cases this WILL be identical- as many have pointed out these all come from the same oceans) you won't care about that lineage name and are happy to buy whatever. However, if a seller IS selling them as GK's when they are not of that 'bloodline' that vendor is essentially committing fraud and 'scamming' people. That's a very different issue than people who are looking for an exact coral, and should not be lumped in together.

I don't understand why people buy Coach purses, but I won't call them fool's because there's cheap knock-offs available for much less (well, maybe I will in secret, but that's cause I'm a guy and it's a purse...)

 

[Troylee]

EAsiest way to put it is if your asking why its important then it's obviously not.... For the people answering this question it is.... Lol

 

[Cuong L]

This is exact thing happened to me with that said coral....:( did you read my thread??? Ahahahahah

lol, didn't see your thread. I just saw alot of similar flamethrowers and thought someone might have mistaken it for a BPC Flamethrower.

 

[Tabasco1]

I think lineage is most relevant to those of us purchasing something for all intents and purposes sight unseen. Lineage infers that the coral is proven to look/grow a certain way that we desire and that carries a higher price tag.

It gets all confused because it might not actually BE one of a kind as another one could get harvested out of the ocean. However, unless it is proven and 'claimed' or named by someone with their reputation on the line you don't actually know how if will 'perform'. You are taking a bigger chance that the coral is not going to be as you expected.

I think there will always be different people who have different reasons for wanting LE offerings. IMO the performance of the coral on a consistent basis has to be pretty high on the list. And as stated before it is all supply and demand. If there is not demand for LE then prices will go down.

I personally don't/won't have a huge budget for LE high end pieces. I am glad that you can still get good deals on real sweet corals, just have to be discriminating with my selections.