Why Is Lineage Sooooooooooooo Important?

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Bubbles_B

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There is so much talk about corals and their lineage that it boggles my mind :tongue:.

If you have something in your tank that has been given an awesome name by a so called awesomely-brilliant-god of a person from the reefing community why does the price hike up so much to the point that not many people can buy it and why is it soooo imprtant to provide the lineage?

Hmmm...I never understood this matter. I just like all kind of corals no matter the price. I just never understtod the notion...:angel:
 
Its not to me as long as its pretty. I guess people just dont want to get ripped off but if you have to ask for lineage you probably already are.
 
Find me the highest price coral you like and I'll sell you a identical one that I paid 10$ for.... just for you I will do a special price of 499.00$ per eye...;) it does matter if you want that rare piece that not everyone has... Lol
 
Alot of you got it all wrong,Troylee sumed it up good.

The original meaning of linege was to know a coral was legit.

For example:

Red Hornets- a store got a colony and started selling frags...well you and I both would not like people to start calling a green zoa, red hornets aswell,would we...because then no one would know which was real and so forth? The whole purpose of lineage was to make a coral able to be proven what it is named......The price that the coral holds is another story...................
 
I would say this much thou if all corals were priced by categories like chalices 49.99$ zoos 29.99$ etc it wouldn't really matter right??? Like you said if you like it you buy it!!!! Now what if you bought that one piece you really liked from this guy for let's say 300$ now next week this dude shows up with a colony for 2$ per eye or polyp or what ever it was... Now what do you do???? Do you sell it for 2$ since that was the last price it sold or do you wanna say hey I paid 300$ from this dude he had the original colony and that's where mine derived???? It's like fake paintings you want to pay for the real deal and get a xerox copy???
 
IMO, for your own use in your own tank, if you get more than one owner away from the original colony it doesn't matter a bit. Even if you get an 'as-advertised' piece that really came off of the original colony of Lando Calrissian Smoov Colt 45 Chalice (or SPS, or acan), the likelihood that yours will look >just< like the original is sketchy at best. Too many factors come into play along the way.

If you are just an 'end user; buy a coral because you like it - like how it grows, how it looks, etc. Don't buy it because of the name. Of course, if you are in business, you have an obligation to yourself and family to get out there and try to make as much cabbage as possible, and these days, that means a name and lineage. So hard feelings towards dealers aren't warranted - if you don't like the trend, no one forces you to buy the coral.
 
Here is another example

Say im an autograph collector. I buy Ringo Starr's autographed personal jacket for $1500, I want there to be proff that it is real,otherwise it has 0 collector value.....Exact same thing applies to coral collectors.....
 
There is alot of theroys on this subject,this is my opinion,and I am sticking with it,that simple.

Linage for a coral,is the same thing as a dog.All my dogs are pure breeds,I can tell you that my 2 ****zu are from champion blood back in China.My Chihuahua is a pure breed,and,well,obviously,her blood is back in Mexico.My Pug is pure breed,and she is also able to be traced back with blood in China.So,by telling you where my dogs come from,you can look at their blood(s) and you can tell if they are a champion dog or not.All of my dogs have got champion blood in them other than the Chihuahua.Its kinda nice to know where the dogs have come from,the same way I like to know where my family is from.

So,with corals,its the same thing.I have had many corals that can be traced back to the originator.Which is kinda nice to know that I have the true linaged original piece of coral.Not a knock of that "Joe-Blow" down the street ordered in wholesale and is trying to make money off of by lying to me.So by having the ligit linage piece of coral,you are able to have a form of security when you go to sell the piece or trade the piece.

The sad thing is,the price does go up,which for most is a problem,but,here is how I avoid the problem of price.I buy 1 nice,ligit linage piece,grow it out,and trade it for a ligit linage piece of coral.When the piece I have traded for is grown out,I should be able to trade it for a ligit linage piece,along with a frag of what I already own,therefor I am trading all my corals,but only really paying for the 1 original piece.

So,that is what I think,take it with a grain of salt if you wish,this is a can or worms!haha!

Good luck!
 
I have a wild collected chalice that has a green rim, a blue body, and orange eyes. It looks like the my Miami so I'm going to call it the my Miami and sell frags of it, but side by side it's not my Miami. I just ripped a whole bunch of people off because lineage isn't important. Cool beans!
 
you (those being negative) guys are mixing up two things-

lineage and price on corals.


Lineage matters when : trying to find an exact coral specimen- this has come about thanks to the glory of the internets where instead of us just seeing our own stuff, or stuff at the LFS, we're not sharing pictures across the country of ONE exact coral specimen. When someone wants to purchase this coral, they want to know they're getting that EXACT coral specimen. Not a similar one, not a nearly close one, they want THAT exact coral they've seen. Why they want it is up to them- calling someone stupid for how they enjoy their hobby is really not needed, and typically shows off more about the person doing the name calling than the person who's having a good time. One reason people like buying lineaged coral is as simple as knowing how a coral will look in their tank. Thanks again to the interwebs, I can go find a picture of a Howard Johnson Spaceship Chalice and see how it looks in a variety of conditions and tanks, based upon all the other people out there who have purchased it. There's more reasons, but at the end of the day, that's a basic one.

Now- for priceing. Want to see a reason some corals are expensive? Go look at the AquaSD rainbow milli. He had way more people who wanted it, than coral to sale. In a free-market, that's called supply and demand. If you REALLY wanted that piece, it may be worth some X value to purchase it. That's how price works- money is a reflection of one's ability to attain goods. When it comes to "LE, rare, named, lineaged, etc" corals- you're trying to buy a piece of ONE coral specimen, hence the exact name attached. Now realize that you are not the only person out there, that we're on a national website meaning you are essentially competing with everyone else in this country who would also like a piece of that EXACT coral. How do you decide who gets to have it? Well, here in America, we're capitalists, so we use money. It's that simple-really. I've never taken an economics class, but I know that much about supply and demand. The great thing about it? Unlike other collector items (like stamps, comic books, diamonds, old cars) corals grow. So instead of increasing in value, as the number of specimens of that EXACT coral grows, the price (because the supply has grown) comes down. Great huh?


Now- can you find other corals that are similar/identical/nearly-identical to those named corals? of course! mother nature is the one who created them, so sure, you'll find other ones out there. Again, the high dollar comes from people trying to by THAT EXACT coral. If you don't want to buy it, don't. Simple.
 
Just a question, as I swear I'm neutral on this issue - if I like it, I buy it.

Anyway, how exactly does someone prove that a coral came from a particular vendor. I mean, I have several pieces from Reeffarmers where my name is still on the webpage as having received my order, so that one works. But I also have some corals that came directly from a vendor where I have no such verifiable proof. So I know who I got them from, but how exactly do I go about 'proving' it?

Here is another example

Say im an autograph collector. I buy Ringo Starr's autographed personal jacket for $1500, I want there to be proff that it is real,otherwise it has 0 collector value.....Exact same thing applies to coral collectors.....
 
Didn't we just have a similar discussion?

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/ge.../57892-lineage-can-worms-has-been-opened.html

The truth of the matter is that lineage in and of itself is absolutely worthless, and if you are buying a piece based on supposed lineage, you're getting taken for a ride. There is absolutely no way to prove that a particular piece is lineaged to anyone or any other piece. People say, I bought it from "so-and-so", and "so-and-so" bought it from "this guy" and "this guy" bought it from "that guy" and "that guy" bought if from the originator. Really? Prove it! You got papers on that coral? I didn't think so. Especially today, everybody and their dog is saying, look I bought this at the LFS, I thinks its "Ms. Lacey Pink Bloomers" and pretty soon they are selling it as such. Just because "so-and-so" bought a piece from "this guy" you have no way of proving that the piece you are getting actually came from the piece that "this guy" sold. Maybe it melted on old "so-and-so" and he went down to the LFS and bought something that looked kind of similar and sold it to you as Ms. Lacey Pink Bloomers. Then you complain and he says, "hey must just be the way it looks in your tank under your lighting and water chemistry"

Lineage cannot be proven or tracked with corals period. Bottom line, buy a piece because you like how it looks, if you think its too expensive don't get hooked into the hype of the name.
 
Just a question, as I swear I'm neutral on this issue - if I like it, I buy it.

Anyway, how exactly does someone prove that a coral came from a particular vendor. I mean, I have several pieces from Reeffarmers where my name is still on the webpage as having received my order, so that one works. But I also have some corals that came directly from a vendor where I have no such verifiable proof. So I know who I got them from, but how exactly do I go about 'proving' it?


as of now, you don't. Hence the need for dealing with people you consider honest and trustworthy. This is also why the issue comes up when you see people who are acting dishonest and using the name to justify their sales of the coral. This is very different from reputable people who simply attach the name to the coral for validity, not because their coral is now less-attractive and they're hoping the name/lineage will justify the price.

Wy Renegade/Randy mentioned a database that's in the works to provide documentation of exactly what you're mentioning- in essence a neutral party that will track where corals have come from so you could use it as a form of documentation. Similar to when people buy art, antiques, etc- it all basically boils down to an outside party putting their reputation on the line that the claim is verifiable and/or authentic.
 
Stated much more eloquently than I could have done this late on a Monday! :wink:

Didn't we just have a similar discussion?

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/ge.../57892-lineage-can-worms-has-been-opened.html

The truth of the matter is that lineage in and of itself is absolutely worthless, and if you are buying a piece based on supposed lineage, you're getting taken for a ride. There is absolutely no way to prove that a particular piece is lineaged to anyone or any other piece. People say, I bought it from "so-and-so", and "so-and-so" bought it from "this guy" and "this guy" bought it from "that guy" and "that guy" bought if from the originator. Really? Prove it! You got papers on that coral? I didn't think so. Especially today, everybody and their dog is saying, look I bought this at the LFS, I thinks its "Ms. Lacey Pink Bloomers" and pretty soon they are selling it as such. Just because "so-and-so" bought a piece from "this guy" you have no way of proving that the piece you are getting actually came from the piece that "this guy" sold. Maybe it melted on old "so-and-so" and he went down to the LFS and bought something that looked kind of similar and sold it to you as Ms. Lacey Pink Bloomers. Then you complain and he says, "hey must just be the way it looks in your tank under your lighting and water chemistry"

Lineage cannot be proven or tracked with corals period. Bottom line, buy a piece because you like how it looks, if you think its too expensive don't get hooked into the hype of the name.
 
Just a question, as I swear I'm neutral on this issue - if I like it, I buy it.

Anyway, how exactly does someone prove that a coral came from a particular vendor. I mean, I have several pieces from Reeffarmers where my name is still on the webpage as having received my order, so that one works. But I also have some corals that came directly from a vendor where I have no such verifiable proof. So I know who I got them from, but how exactly do I go about 'proving' it?

There is somthing that I do,and I know it sounds stupid,I have a filing cabnit of shipping labels.I also save order forms,and I file those as well,I have a filing cabnit that I keep coral linage in,its very ligit and like prison files.Ever file I have,is a picture of the originators colony.
 
I can tell you this much from being a highend collector... There is no money to be made in this hobby by being a hobbyist or collector... I buy what I want just like you do and if I'm gonna 500$ for a eye of crazy fox you bet your butt I wanna know where it came from there is plenty of fakes out there!!!! I don't expect to get all money back but I do expect to at least get 50 percent and I can't get that if I don't have the family tree that points to jfox... It's bad enough we have to go by word of mouth ad the price derives of it but it's all we got for now... Someone or something needs to be done to have more accurate info and making this more real and acceptable for everyone... I am personally tired of people getting a piece from a Lfs and chopping it and selling for bookoo bucks because it looks like "insert piece" that's where the linage comes into play... Yes all roads lead to the ocean but if these ind didn't claim such and such names etc it would be more affordable for me and you...;)
 
Didn't we just have a similar discussion?

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/ge.../57892-lineage-can-worms-has-been-opened.html

The truth of the matter is that lineage in and of itself is absolutely worthless, and if you are buying a piece based on supposed lineage, you're getting taken for a ride. There is absolutely no way to prove that a particular piece is lineaged to anyone or any other piece. People say, I bought it from "so-and-so", and "so-and-so" bought it from "this guy" and "this guy" bought it from "that guy" and "that guy" bought if from the originator. Really? Prove it! You got papers on that coral? I didn't think so. Especially today, everybody and their dog is saying, look I bought this at the LFS, I thinks its "Ms. Lacey Pink Bloomers" and pretty soon they are selling it as such. Just because "so-and-so" bought a piece from "this guy" you have no way of proving that the piece you are getting actually came from the piece that "this guy" sold. Maybe it melted on old "so-and-so" and he went down to the LFS and bought something that looked kind of similar and sold it to you as Ms. Lacey Pink Bloomers. Then you complain and he says, "hey must just be the way it looks in your tank under your lighting and water chemistry"

Lineage cannot be proven or tracked with corals period. Bottom line, buy a piece because you like how it looks, if you think its too expensive don't get hooked into the hype of the name.


I like playing DA with ya- so I'll be a jerk and say: if I buy a coral from you, and watch you cut it, I can feel positive that its lineaged to you. Beyond that- you're right, it comes down to the reliability of the person/vendor you're dealing with, and the reputation they hope to maintain. But that'll change as the hobby continues to grow- I'm positive at some point we will see "authenticators" similar to people who document antique's provide verification of lineage claims.
 

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