Why Is Lineage Sooooooooooooo Important?
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SunnyX
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Well, let me get it out of the way and say that I personally never cared much for lineage. I still do have spurts of "collector fever", but for the most part If I liked the coral I purchased it. However, there are special peices out there that warrant the higher prices and lineage. Off the top of my head I can ring off a few famous ones, Purple Monster Acro and the Tyree Pink Lemonade. As a vendor , I have seen many corals come in that are similar to those "named", but they are not as special. For instance, I had to purchase six frags of Pink Lemonade in order to find the right strain. All others before had a hint of green in them. The sixth peice I purchased was the only one that grew a pure yellow. Now, keep in mind that all of these corals were in the same tank and under the same conditions.
As for the Purple Monster, I see similar looking wild peices coming in, but none of them have the iredecence of the "true" peice.
Now, please do not think that just because I am a vendor that my thoughts on this matter would be biased. Everyone who knows me knows that I am a hobbyiest first, and vendor second.
The main reason I prefer lineage is that I know exactly what I am getting. Yes, there are similar wild peices out there but why risk it? What people need to understand is that the named corals really are special. They all started as wild peices, perhaps with thirty colonies or more being shipped in.some of them will have better genes than others, and only a handful will survive the first year of captivity, and blossom. You can bring in ten identical colonies and keep them under the same conditions, and I will guarantee you that only one or two colonies with shine.
Those of you who have purchased wild sps know that most of them will turn brown and not grow if they are not kept under the precise conditions. And even then, only a few will make it to named status.
When you buy lineage you are buying peace of mind. You are buying the peace of mind that the coral will hold its color and grow well. For those complaining about the prices of certain peices, I say buy the coral now and then sell the frags the peice will undoubtedly yield to recoup your costs.
As for the relatively high cost of some peices, the market will price out those that charge exuberant prices.
Let's also keep in mind that today hot corals will be tomorrow forgotten ones. The green slimer as common and cheap as it is was once a hot item. I remember paying $60 for a frag of one many years ago. I still have the same peice and love it.
I'll admit, a couple years back I was caught in the "gotta have catch them all" mentality. Up until that time, I simply purchased corals based on the physical appearance. When I caught the bug I was spending large amounts of money on ora and ATL frags. Do I regret it,no. I was able to sell the frags of the corals when the time came.
One last thing to consider. Vendors have to purchase boxes and boxes of corals in order to find that one special gem. And even after finding that gem they must sustain it in captivity long enough to say that it is worthy of a higher status. We as vendors lose on many corals coming in, as not all are gems. But, when we do find that one gem we really do need to recoup our costs and run a business. I don't know what the average hobbyiest thinks, but before I was a vendor I thought all corals coming out of the ocean were special. I thought that these vendor were making a killing. Well, I found out that this simply was not the case. For every one gem you have to purchase at least fifty normal corals. Every vendor here has a "normal" holding tank where the "filler" and less desirable corals sit.
Let's just all focus on keeping these beautiful specimens alive and happy, and allow the politics and pricing to sort itself out. ;)
Happy reefing everyone,
Sonny
As for the Purple Monster, I see similar looking wild peices coming in, but none of them have the iredecence of the "true" peice.
Now, please do not think that just because I am a vendor that my thoughts on this matter would be biased. Everyone who knows me knows that I am a hobbyiest first, and vendor second.
The main reason I prefer lineage is that I know exactly what I am getting. Yes, there are similar wild peices out there but why risk it? What people need to understand is that the named corals really are special. They all started as wild peices, perhaps with thirty colonies or more being shipped in.some of them will have better genes than others, and only a handful will survive the first year of captivity, and blossom. You can bring in ten identical colonies and keep them under the same conditions, and I will guarantee you that only one or two colonies with shine.
Those of you who have purchased wild sps know that most of them will turn brown and not grow if they are not kept under the precise conditions. And even then, only a few will make it to named status.
When you buy lineage you are buying peace of mind. You are buying the peace of mind that the coral will hold its color and grow well. For those complaining about the prices of certain peices, I say buy the coral now and then sell the frags the peice will undoubtedly yield to recoup your costs.
As for the relatively high cost of some peices, the market will price out those that charge exuberant prices.
Let's also keep in mind that today hot corals will be tomorrow forgotten ones. The green slimer as common and cheap as it is was once a hot item. I remember paying $60 for a frag of one many years ago. I still have the same peice and love it.
I'll admit, a couple years back I was caught in the "gotta have catch them all" mentality. Up until that time, I simply purchased corals based on the physical appearance. When I caught the bug I was spending large amounts of money on ora and ATL frags. Do I regret it,no. I was able to sell the frags of the corals when the time came.
One last thing to consider. Vendors have to purchase boxes and boxes of corals in order to find that one special gem. And even after finding that gem they must sustain it in captivity long enough to say that it is worthy of a higher status. We as vendors lose on many corals coming in, as not all are gems. But, when we do find that one gem we really do need to recoup our costs and run a business. I don't know what the average hobbyiest thinks, but before I was a vendor I thought all corals coming out of the ocean were special. I thought that these vendor were making a killing. Well, I found out that this simply was not the case. For every one gem you have to purchase at least fifty normal corals. Every vendor here has a "normal" holding tank where the "filler" and less desirable corals sit.
Let's just all focus on keeping these beautiful specimens alive and happy, and allow the politics and pricing to sort itself out. ;)
Happy reefing everyone,
Sonny
H2O
Well-Known Member
most will agree that its to much She said He said when it comes to linage means nothing in my opinon
at the end i still get no proof of any kind that what i paid for is real so where is the argument here ? u buy a car u get a title that says what car u have year etc.
Its just sad how greedy people ruined the hobby ! they r taking the fun out of it with those high price tags
$500 an eye $700 for a mushroom i dont get it since when frags r worth more then gold ????
at the end i still get no proof of any kind that what i paid for is real so where is the argument here ? u buy a car u get a title that says what car u have year etc.
Its just sad how greedy people ruined the hobby ! they r taking the fun out of it with those high price tags
$500 an eye $700 for a mushroom i dont get it since when frags r worth more then gold ????
Alpha Aquaculture
Designer Clownfish Hatchery
i think super high prices are killer on my wallet but i love the rare corals. i hope it changes and you can get a nice lineaged aquacultured piece for a good price. its already happening slowly but surely
as far as lineage, its a great way to tell bloodlines like clownfish snowflake or onxy. lineage is just a simple tool used to tell that two things are genetically the same and there are ways to tell. i have multiple colonies from multiple people of the same lineage. over time as these pieces acclimate and change color they look identical so i know both people were correct about lineage.
lineage has value, not to the point where some vendors take it but lets leave money out of it for a second. lineage from someone trusted in the community means that your coral generally has a higher chance of survival. freshly imported corals will never be as hardy as captive grown pieces. lineage doesnt mean that you are always getting something aquacultured. many vendors use names for wild colonies or frags from wild colonies. you must me a smart consumer and know what your buying.
every coral is genetically different. some may be taken from the ocean from the same colony at different times. so we may see the same coral for sale but many are unique entire colonies. just like each of us is unique. some people like johnny deep. some people like bpc flamethrower. some people dont like jail. some corals dont like captivity. the corals that do live in captivity and grow enough to be named and shared deserve a name. i also think its fun to name a beautiful piece of coral that is bound to be grown by many. its way easier than describing it everytime ;)
as far as lineage, its a great way to tell bloodlines like clownfish snowflake or onxy. lineage is just a simple tool used to tell that two things are genetically the same and there are ways to tell. i have multiple colonies from multiple people of the same lineage. over time as these pieces acclimate and change color they look identical so i know both people were correct about lineage.
lineage has value, not to the point where some vendors take it but lets leave money out of it for a second. lineage from someone trusted in the community means that your coral generally has a higher chance of survival. freshly imported corals will never be as hardy as captive grown pieces. lineage doesnt mean that you are always getting something aquacultured. many vendors use names for wild colonies or frags from wild colonies. you must me a smart consumer and know what your buying.
every coral is genetically different. some may be taken from the ocean from the same colony at different times. so we may see the same coral for sale but many are unique entire colonies. just like each of us is unique. some people like johnny deep. some people like bpc flamethrower. some people dont like jail. some corals dont like captivity. the corals that do live in captivity and grow enough to be named and shared deserve a name. i also think its fun to name a beautiful piece of coral that is bound to be grown by many. its way easier than describing it everytime ;)
FishLipz
Cheap and Easy Reefer
God I wish this name/lineage garbage would go away. If you like a piece at a given price, buy it. Who cares who's name or what store it came from. Back in the day when we all used similar lighting, and cameras and photo editing software weren't nearly as good, what you saw was pretty much what you got. Besides, you can tell me its a LE whatever and tell me you got it from this guy, who got it from that guy. How the heck are you going to prove it unless you keep every piece of paper or E-mail from every purchase you make. If you do you are just pathetic. Now days, all you can do is hope for the best when you buy. Besides anything that comes out of the ocean any color but brown somebody wants to plaster with names and garbage. Spend less time worrying about where your corals came from and more time enjoying them.
We were very serious back then....
So...I have the true purple hornets, and all the rest of you have the fake???? lol
Shouldn't it be signed in blood??? ;)
Troylee
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i see a huge one point everyone is bringing up and that's aquaculture vs wild..... this is very important and for the most part aquaculture pieces are the ones that catch a big price tag and have names..... why because there proven pieces!!!!!!!!! i think sunny explained this very well!!!!! kudos bro....1smile1
Troylee
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one other thing to me that makes linage important is challies for instance..... have you ever seen colony shots of any crazy for, flame thrower, my Miami etc???? there is one pic if that!!!! when buying very small pieces you can know what to expect that little chunk to look like because if you ask the seller for a colony shot 9 out of 10 times it's not a colony the mother is smaller than a frag disc......
i think we should go for a record of how many threads we can start on the topic.
pretty soon these threads will need lineage.
and then people will start selling rights to start threads with the topic of "lineage".
after a while people will start naming non-original lineage threads "lineage" and people will start posting in them even though they're not an original lineage thread.
pretty soon these threads will need lineage.
and then people will start selling rights to start threads with the topic of "lineage".
after a while people will start naming non-original lineage threads "lineage" and people will start posting in them even though they're not an original lineage thread.
lol it's my understanding Stray owns the original...its worth the read :P https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/general-reef-discussions/27962-lineage-fanatics-really-worth.html
ROFL, now that is funny right there, I don't care who you are!
OP
OP
Bubbles_B
Valuable Member
I love the fact the everyone chimed in to discuss this topic. I have a much clearer idea as to why this is so important to others and why things like this holds great value. It priceless information like this that allows people understanding the meaning of lineage and value. I myself had no incnlination about this topic but it is so clear to me. If it is of value to "you" buy it. But if it not worth the trouble don't. Plain and simple. But I do like eye candy especially from reputable vendors/sellers.
Thanks ladies and gents this has been the most informational thread I have ever placed. :kiss:
Thanks ladies and gents this has been the most informational thread I have ever placed. :kiss:
Cuong L
Active Member
CJO
Valuable Member
So, what do you do when two people say different things about the lineage of a coral (or other)? I have one vendor who says that his coral is from the same mother colony as another vendors and is selling it for much less. I have another vendor who says that they are absolutely not from the same mother colony...
CJ
CJ
Buy them both and graft them together, rename them CJO One Bad Mother, and sell for a hefty price since you are the owner! :wink: just make sure you hook me up with a piece!
Tabasco1
Valuable Member
Does anyone know what the COA proposed tracking failed? Seems like it would be something that a good bit of people would be interested in. There has to be an easy/legit way to track this stuff without reinventing the wheel. Maybe a wiki site? Or something similar where you have to be registered in order to post? At least that would be a start.
Wonder what type of revenue a service like that could generate... hmmm
Wonder what type of revenue a service like that could generate... hmmm
BlueWaterTropicals
Active Member
Here is my idea...
Coralpedia had the right idea, but lost touch IMO... Have a Picture database showing pics of it and a description of exactly what its suppose to look like. If it doesnt meet that criteria, then it is not the named piece.
Pricing, that all depends on supply and demand.
Lineage, its a waste of time because as mentioned, there is no way to prove it. You can track sales records and who ordered what from who but there is no way of proving you are buying a piece of what they originally bought unless you actually know the piece in question. IE ability to see it upon arrival and ability to watch it grow to the point where you watch the owner frag it.
If you see something you like and you have the money to pay for it, reguardless of anything else, buy it.
Coralpedia had the right idea, but lost touch IMO... Have a Picture database showing pics of it and a description of exactly what its suppose to look like. If it doesnt meet that criteria, then it is not the named piece.
Pricing, that all depends on supply and demand.
Lineage, its a waste of time because as mentioned, there is no way to prove it. You can track sales records and who ordered what from who but there is no way of proving you are buying a piece of what they originally bought unless you actually know the piece in question. IE ability to see it upon arrival and ability to watch it grow to the point where you watch the owner frag it.
If you see something you like and you have the money to pay for it, reguardless of anything else, buy it.
Been tried and didn't generate hardly any interest at all, and almost zero revenue.
The down side of this is the variability of a piece under different chemistry and lighting. A quick browse through coralpedia will quickly show you multiple names for the exact same coral with minor variations, and in some cases almost none. Everyone wants to be the namer/originator of a new piece these days, and they get upset if someone tells their corals is the same as XYZ. And some of the vendors don't help as they simply stick names selected to generate more interest on pieces regardless of whether they are already named or not. It would be nice if we could all agree and follow the same rules, then the name game wouldn't be such a name. Just as an example, you got the Happy Coral PE currently being sold by the originator for $10 a polyp, the exact same polyp is currently be marketed under another name by another vendor and they want $60 a polyp.
Tabasco1
Valuable Member
Well it seems to me that the lines of marketing of a coral and lineage are getting blurred again and then seems like a 3rd variable is being added. ID. I don't think lineage really has anything to do with ID. I think that ID is valid as a talking point when people are discussing that it comes from the ocean and the species is the same and looks similar/same. Lineage talks about the specific animal that subsequent animals come from. I know that one tends to affect the other but they are different. I don't think that a system could do all 3 successfully.
I think that free market would have to be just that and left seperate as well as a system that is strictly for ID purposes.
Lineage would have to be single purposed as is the AKC. It would just work from the original lineage and track from that point on.
I think that free market would have to be just that and left seperate as well as a system that is strictly for ID purposes.
Lineage would have to be single purposed as is the AKC. It would just work from the original lineage and track from that point on.
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