Why Is Lineage Sooooooooooooo Important?

[Tabasco1]

Another interesting twist IF there were to be a registery system to track lineage, is that you could also determine as the seller if the person you are selling to would have rights to then sell their piece as a registered piece. Like breeding rights with the AKC. I can mate my boxers, but because I don't have breeding rights (nor do I really care and have not even registered them with AKC) I would not be able to sell them as registered boxers with the champion bloodlines they have. They would still be boxers, but they would not be able to be traced back to Johnny J. ;)

Don't know if this would be popular, but it is something that can be done with a lineage based tracking system.

 

[aaronlovesshel]

I agree w/ SunnyX as a consumer:

When I purchase a coral w/ lineage, I feel confidence that the coral has the POTENTIAL to become exactly what I see represented in the pictures from those that have named the coral. So often on forums, hobbyists see pics and quickly ask "hey, what is that coral in the 3rd pic down, the one that is neon red?" The hobbyist wants to be sure that they are purchasing that potential.

I also purchase the peace of mind that comes w/ the history of the coral in captivity (read stability of the coral.) I want to understand that this coral has a "chance" in my system.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Another interesting twist IF there were to be a registery system to track lineage, is that you could also determine as the seller if the person you are selling to would have rights to then sell their piece as a registered piece. Like breeding rights with the AKC. I can mate my boxers, but because I don't have breeding rights (nor do I really care and have not even registered them with AKC) I would not be able to sell them as registered boxers with the champion bloodlines they have. They would still be boxers, but they would not be able to be traced back to Johnny J. ;)

Don't know if this would be popular, but it is something that can be done with a lineage based tracking system.

Yep, it was tried - didn't take off. In part because of the issues with ID; If I have RPE for example, you track them as Wy Renegade's Blazing Sun PE, somebody else tacks a different name and you're tracking them. Pretty soon we have thousands of name for what is essentially the same coral. The blurred lines already exist in the hobby, and that is part of the problem. Some don't feel you can call your OPE Envy Orange, unless you can trace lineage back to the colony of the original namer. Others feel that any OPE should simply be referred to as Envy Orange. Pretty soon you're trying to track 1000s of strains of Envy Orange from different origins.

 

[BlueWaterTropicals]

Pretty soon you're trying to track 1000s of strains of Envy Orange from different origins.

All origins come from the Sea. That was my point.

If X is identicle to Y by meeting a certain criteria and X was established long before Y, then Y is really X reguardless of where it came from. If Y is different then X per the criteria, then Y gets a different name.

The whole system needs to be revamped, IMO.

Take coral X and all the names given to it, then put it to a vote and let the hobbiests pick the common name for it. Then it will be established for future reference. Its going to be a PITB, but thats what its going to take.

 

[Wy Renegade]

All origins come from the Sea. That was my point.

If X is identicle to Y by meeting a certain criteria and X was established long before Y, then Y is really X reguardless of where it came from. If Y is different then X per the criteria, then Y gets a different name.

The whole system needs to be revamped, IMO.

Take coral X and all the names given to it, then put it to a vote and let the hobbiests pick the common name for it. Then it will be established for future reference. Its going to be a PITB, but thats what its going to take.

I agree, that is exactly what it would take - but wow what a headache that would be

 

[drainbamage]

we're muddling the issues again-

Lineage - a person or business's name, as in "I'm selling a Farmer John's Black Puma Chalice"

Name - a color morph of a coral, as in 'I'm selling a strawberry shortcake acro'

Price - as in 'not a part of this discussion unless anyone wants to admit they're just fussy about things being pricey.'

As of now, things are still all screwy because this aspect of the hobby is so young- trying to say it's broken, hopeless, silly, etc is well, silly. I doubt the kennel clubs got things worked out overnight, I doubt the horse registries were started on day 1 either- even the German's probably took a few years to realize there were issues documenting horse breeding and only then went well, German on it.

 

[drainbamage]

Take coral X and all the names given to it, then put it to a vote and let the hobbiests pick the common name for it. Then it will be established for future reference. Its going to be a PITB, but thats what its going to take.

I'd disagree- democracies have failed in nearly every application of them.

the 'official' botanical name plants typically comes with verification of the name by the Kew gardens of England Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew - Home Page Why these folks? Because that's the leader that everyone just happened to follow.
True there is a "democracy" at work within the Kew community to verify the names in accordance to the standards they have set, but that's separate from the general public just agreeing on a name.

Similarly, what is decided as 'official' english grammar? There's no guide, so how do teachers grade their pupils (and thus influence the entire population mass?) They typically go off of 'recognized' dictionaries that carry no more weight than the followership that essentially provides them credibility, in essence a circulatory system of * Offer product based on reputation -> buy product based on reputation -> provide reputation based on having purchased -> offer product based on reputation *

Nasty cycle, no? It's how most non-empirical knowledge works though.

IMO it boils down to one organization or group simply making a run at it- establishing a website and continuing to update it with accurate information, a group that establishes 'types' to create similar common names amongst similar items, etc. If we chose, we could easily make R2R that place, but it would be a lot of effort and would require a lot of shaking up of the current system.

 

[Tabasco1]

It would also take everyone recognizing that organizations authority to make a run at it. Why would vender X care what the organization set down as how the registration system would run if the market place did not recognize it. It would probably take a majority of the big name vendors to buy in or support that organization in order for it to work.

Another analogy might be with diamonds, I know this is different cuz it is grading and not lineage, so maybe not apples to oranges, but oranges to tangarines. GIA is recognized by most people as reputable and an authority, but it is such because vendors recognize them.

Hey, maybe we are barking up the wrong tree with this lineage thing altogether and need to think about a grading system? Like we do with clowns? Just throwing that out there.

 

[drainbamage]

It would also take everyone recognizing that organizations authority to make a run at it. Why would vender X care what the organization set down as how the registration system would run if the market place did not recognize it. It would probably take a majority of the big name vendors to buy in or support that organization in order for it to work.

Another analogy might be with diamonds, I know this is different cuz it is grading and not lineage, so maybe not apples to oranges, but oranges to tangarines. GIA is recognized by most people as reputable and an authority, but it is such because vendors recognize them.

Hey, maybe we are barking up the wrong tree with this lineage thing altogether and need to think about a grading system? Like we do with clowns? Just throwing that out there.

Nah- see you're on the right track, but you're going about it the wrong way. True the vendors won't submit to the system at first- the whole point is that the org has to basically endure long enough that the public begins to recognize them in such a way that they're given no choice but to start using them as well. Alternative is to have the org claim their offering something that the vendors have a value to follow- such as when some of the fish imported were being tagged as "verified quality checked" or something and could have a brand attached to them. Just like your diamond analogy (which is entirely valid)- why is GIA recognized? Well, because people recognize them. Circular reasoning, nothing more, but for these sort of things it works.

Grading isn't really the issue as we're not worrying about quality as much as exactness so far. Maybe there will be a case where someday all Orange with Orange zoa's are called Bam Bam's of different grades- but for now I think there's still enough variances to keep separate names, it's just a matter of getting some sort of organization to it beyond speciation, as that's honestly insufficient for the mass variety within the species (especially Zoanthids!!)

 

[Wy Renegade]

Nah- see you're on the right track, but you're going about it the wrong way. True the vendors won't submit to the system at first- the whole point is that the org has to basically endure long enough that the public begins to recognize them in such a way that they're given no choice but to start using them as well. Alternative is to have the org claim their offering something that the vendors have a value to follow- such as when some of the fish imported were being tagged as "verified quality checked" or something and could have a brand attached to them. Just like your diamond analogy (which is entirely valid)- why is GIA recognized? Well, because people recognize them. Circular reasoning, nothing more, but for these sort of things it works.

Grading isn't really the issue as we're not worrying about quality as much as exactness so far. Maybe there will be a case where someday all Orange with Orange zoa's are called Bam Bam's of different grades- but for now I think there's still enough variances to keep separate names, it's just a matter of getting some sort of organization to it beyond speciation, as that's honestly insufficient for the mass variety within the species (especially Zoanthids!!)

I think that speciation is out with any group of corals, as proper verification to species would require DNA analysis, and I doubt that an organization with the technology/ability to do DNA analysis is going to be much interested in tracking the lineage of corals ;). I think it would be very difficult for one of the existing sites to try and say hey we are the new authority on corals. IMO, it would take an independent third site in order to be able to successfully pull this off in a realistic time line.

 

[Tabasco1]

Circular reasoning has to start somewhere. And you are right that the organization would have to offer some kind of value or it would never gain momentum which is probably why the other attempts died on the vine. I still think that it needs to have buy in from at least a few of the heavy hitter vendors to get off the ground, and it would need to have enough seperation from them so that there is not an issue of integrity or corroboration. Or someone super passionate with a large bankroll.

I think it would be a very intersting process.

I also think that ID is a very different subject than lineage and that is where alot of the confusion and muddling is.

 

[Wy Renegade]

I also think that ID is a very different subject than lineage and that is where alot of the confusion and muddling is.

Yes and no. The fact is, you can't have one without the other. Brian and I may both have a colony of Eagle Eyes for example, if you're tracking linage, you are now tracking DB's Eagle Eyes, and Wy Renegade's Eagle Eyes. Now you get in a colony of zoas from the ocean, and their Eagle Eyes, but you decide you want to name them something different, so you call them Tabasco's Poker Chips. Pretty soon, you got so many common names and so many linages to keep track of that the whole things usefulness as a tool falls apart.

To use examples similar to what you all have been throwing out, I have a border collie. I can't just name it Wy Renegades Wyoming Cow Dog and start keeping track of linage and expect to get anywhere. Everyone will recognize my Wyoming Cow Dog as a Border Collie and tell me so. The bottom line is you can't have one without the other.

 

[drainbamage]

I think that speciation is out with any group of corals, as proper verification to species would require DNA analysis, and I doubt that an organization with the technology/ability to do DNA analysis is going to be much interested in tracking the lineage of corals ;). I think it would be very difficult for one of the existing sites to try and say hey we are the new authority on corals. IMO, it would take an independent third site in order to be able to successfully pull this off in a realistic time line.

Agreed on speciation- I don't see it as being a needed item at this time anyways. Down the road when genetic testing becomes more commonplace, who knows what we'll end up with. But for now, type IDing is going to simply go off of what hobbyists simply run with- something you've encountered with the paly/Z. Gigantus thing. If we discard the notion of scientific to that degree, we can still however make good grounds towards some form of systematic naming form.

Disagree on people who think vendors need to lead the way- they're job is simply to buy and sell- they're not the ones with the ingrained interest in establishing naming in and of itself. Rather the hobbyists who purchase from the vendors need to begin demanding the vendors follow the 'official' guidelines.
As for it needing to be a brand-new third-party site...why? Again, Kew gardens wasn't neutral, neither are the dictionary companies. Free-market economies have their languages dictated by companies, not charities.

Just go google an article about refrigerators while sitting in your jacuzzi :tongue:

 

[drainbamage]

Yes and no. The fact is, you can't have one without the other. Brian and I may both have a colony of Eagle Eyes for example, if you're tracking linage, you are now tracking DB's Eagle Eyes, and Wy Renegade's Eagle Eyes. Now you get in a colony of zoas from the ocean, and their Eagle Eyes, but you decide you want to name them something different, so you call them Tabasco's Poker Chips. Pretty soon, you got so many common names and so many linages to keep track of that the whole things usefulness as a tool falls apart.

To use examples similar to what you all have been throwing out, I have a border collie. I can't just name it Wy Renegades Wyoming Cow Dog and start keeping track of linage and expect to get anywhere. Everyone will recognize my Wyoming Cow Dog as a Border Collie and tell me so. The bottom line is you can't have one without the other.

Agreed- but in your case, you will find those who want the Renegade Cow Dog-and if there's enough of those, it will begin to have it's own distinctions from a border collie, if that only distinction is a track-back to you, so be it, it's still a distinction. The quality of the lineage is very different form the simple fact of lineage, this is the other mud we're dealing with in our debate, but IMO a separate issue (just because we currently have low quality doesn't make it a silly idea- just means we need to work on the quality if we choose to.)

The eagle eye is a great example- there's no problem with any of those three names, and no conflict (after all, since we've all attached our names we're representing them as OUR specific item, not just them as a generic type.) the problem will only arise if someone tries to sell some DB's (that have been purchased from a line that connects to me) as some Renegades, or vice versa. The coloration name is as of yet unstandardized, so there's no right or wrong to any name that gets attached, unless it's a persons name (lineage) and misrepresented.