Zero No3 on Salifert Test kit is actually not 0.0

[CHSUB]

Turns out zero on hobby test kits is not zero and “bottoming” out nutrients can’t be determined with hobby kits. Imo, eye tests is more reliable: pale colors would be best indicator.

Fauna Marin ICP results: no3 = .1 ppm, Salifert =0.0; po4= .015, Hanna =0.0.
Corals colorful and growing!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'll just repeat myself that ANY association of a reef tank look with a particular nitrate level as an indication of whether it is a problem or not ignores all the other sources of N in a reef tank, such as ammonia, organics (amino acids and others), particulates, and whole organisms such as bacteria. Those certainly vary tank to tank.

Undetectable nitrate with a test kit can be a serious problem, or it can be OK. It all depends on these other sources.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I believe that’s why is advisable to run a system with detectable residual no3, a minimum of 1ppm is advisable and higher or lower will depend on how experienced are you in the hobby.
At the end of the day you only determining the residual no3 not what the system is producing and using.

 

[CHSUB]

Coral growth at 0.0 no3 Salifert Test kit since September. 7 tips vs 1 on SPS, no reason to have readable no3 on a hobby test kit, imo.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Coral growth at 0.0 no3 Salifert Test kit since September. 7 tips vs 1 on SPS, no reason to have readable no3 on a hobby test kit, imo.

If you have other adequate sources of N, that is true. If you do not, it is not true, and the only way to know is to try it, which may have negative consequences if it is not true.

 

[BriDroid]

If you have other adequate sources of N, that is true. If you do not, it is not true, and the only way to know is to try it, which may have negative consequences if it is not true.

That is why I dose 0.2ppm of ammonium bicarbonate daily. Just to keep that safety buffer there. My N runs about 1-3ppm when tested. If my tank was bigger and I could add more fish, I'm sure that would get rid of the need to dose ammonium daily.

 

[CHSUB]

If you have other adequate sources of N, that is true. If you do not, it is not true, and the only way to know is to try it, which may have negative consequences if it is not true.

Agreed with regards to corals. How would this apply to dinoflagellates? A new tank at 0.0 no3 since April, if you use todays common misconception that bottoming out nutrients causes dinos, shouldn’t my tank be overrun with toxic algae killing and smothering everything? Yet it’s thriving and the once sterile dry white rock is now almost all purple and covered with coralline algae.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Agreed with regards to corals. How would this apply to dinoflagellates? A new tank at 0.0 no3 since April, if you use todays common misconception that bottoming out nutrients causes dinos, shouldn’t my tank be overrun with toxic algae killing and smothering everything? Yet it’s thriving and the once sterile dry white rock is now almost all purple and covered with coralline algae.

I believe that bottomed out N is a significant risk factor for dinos if there are any surfaces not fully colonized with competitors. It is leaving an opening for them to grow. Ensuring some N and P availability can help ensure surfaces are colonized with something else that competes with dinos for space, such as diatoms, algae, or perhaps bacteria.

 

[CHSUB]

I believe that bottomed out N is a significant risk factor for dinos if there are any surfaces not fully colonized with competitors. It is leaving an opening for them to grow. Ensuring some N and P availability can help ensure surfaces are colonized with something else that competes with dinos for space, such as diatoms, algae, or perhaps bacteria.

Yes, however I’m not a fan of that idea and believed it’s flawed and false, and imo many believe it’s not a competition for space, which has merit maybe, but that bottomed out N spontaneously produce dinos. I’m a believer that Dinos are simply first, misidentified, and easiest to see; requiring no less or more N than diatoms, algae, or bacteria. The uncolonized area only needs time and not more N. If dinos have enough N to grow so does everything else.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yes, however I’m not a fan of that idea and believed it’s flawed and false, and imo many believe it’s not a competition for space, which has merit maybe, but that bottomed out N spontaneously produce dinos. I’m a believer that Dinos are simply first, misidentified, and easiest to see; requiring no less or more N than diatoms, algae, or bacteria. The uncolonized area only needs time and not more N. If dinos have enough N to grow so does everything else.

I'm not going to defend what anyone else might think. I suspect they read that low nutrients may lead to dinos, and may misunderstand why.

I think enough folks have fairly rapidly solved dino issues by boosting competitors that I'm convinced it is part of the issue. :)

I agree that many pests are either misidentified or are a mixture of several at the same time, clouding what is useful and what is not.

 

[CHSUB]

still at 0.00 ppm Salifert Tested No3. Turns out “Bottom out” nutrients are not that bad. Over 2 now!

 

[Mellotang]

You’re not bottomed out

Tank is balanced and consuming nitrogen

 

[CHSUB]

You’re not bottomed out

Tank is balanced and consuming nitrogen

Then what is “bottomed out”? Testing shows zero no3 from day 1 and continues over 2 years later.
Two years ago:

 

[JWsticks]

Then what is “bottomed out”? Testing shows zero no3 from day 1 and continues over 2 years later.
Two years ago:

Nice looking tanks and agree your tanks are in balance with your current growth rate. If you try pushing growth more by increasing light intensity, no3 will eventually goto hard 0. Sensitive sps will bleach and some will perish. I run a huge refugium to export po4 and dose no3 daily in my alk container to keep my system happy.

 

[exnisstech]

Zero N and P also doesn't mean no nuisance algae but I did got dinos IDed with a microscope. Got rid of the dinos but the algae is still going strong but only on acrylic and plastics. I'm assuming beneficial bacteria doesn't care to populate the plastic surfaces like it does the rock but that's just my speculation.

0 N and P per Hanna testers pretty much since starting a year ago.

I'll take high N and P any day. This tank tested N 51.3 and P a flashing 0.9 yesterday per Hanna and the tank never had algae in 2.5 years. Even the tester acros aren't complaining.

 

[Tahoe61]

still at 0.00 ppm Salifert Tested No3. Turns out “Bottom out” nutrients are not that bad. Over 2 now!

You have absolutely gorgeous tanks and great success. There are far too many variables contributing to your accomplishments. Yet you're so focused on proving every other hobbyist with concerns about low N/P values wrong.
We get it, the horse is dead.

Perhaps let your systems be the example.

Happy Reefing.

 

[CHSUB]

You have absolutely gorgeous tanks and great success. There are far too many variables contributing to your accomplishments. Yet you're so focused on proving every other hobbyist with concerns about low N/P values wrong.
We get it, the horse is dead.

Perhaps let your systems be the example.

Happy Reefing.

Thanks, I think…haha! I’m not necessarily trying to prove people wrong, I’m merely pointing out I believe there is to much focus on N/P values whether it’s too high or low. Also enjoy having discussions on different ways to achieve success. My approach here at R2R seems to go “against the grain” with regards to nutrients, however not to long ago that was not the case. The hobby goes back and forth but imo J Sprung in his book from 1994 clearly defines how the hobbyist should think about no3. He writes, “many Reef aquariums have naturally low nitrate levels, levels less than 1PPM as nitrate, despite good fish populations and regular feeding… public aquariums, as well as home aquariums have demonstrated quite plainly that fish and invertebrate not only tolerate high nitrate levels they can thrive in waters with high nitrates (+40 ppm no3).”

 

[CHSUB]

Nice looking tanks and agree your tanks are in balance with your current growth rate. If you try pushing growth more by increasing light intensity, no3 will eventually goto hard 0. Sensitive sps will bleach and some will perish. I run a huge refugium to export po4 and dose no3 daily in my alk container to keep my system happy.

At some point nutrients (n,p, etc, or other) could become limited and starve corals, mangroves, or the system itself; that is quite obvious. However, speaking of nitrogen specifically, I believe it is more difficult to reach that point than many believe. I personally have never seen it but I generally feed adequately and maintain a large fish population.

 

[Dan_P]

At some point nutrients (n,p, etc, or other) could become limited and starve corals, mangroves, or the system itself; that is quite obvious. However, speaking of nitrogen specifically, I believe it is more difficult to reach that point than many believe. I personally have never seen it but I generally feed adequately and maintain a large fish population.

This is a good point to bring up the fact that the most important factor determining aquarium success is likely the aquarist. Rarely if ever discussed is the fact that the aquarist is the “god” factor in aquarium ecology. Once you start to entertain this notion, the capricious nature of the nitrate level effect on aquaria can make sense. Ditto most capricious behavior of aquaria.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Then what is “bottomed out”? Testing shows zero no3 from day 1 and continues over 2 years later.
Two years ago:

Obviously when one gets an undetectable value for anything, it may be slightly below the detection limit, or far below it, and the response of organisms may be very, very different in those two scenarios.

In the case of nitrate, there are also a variety of other sources of N that will vary tank to tank, such as ammonia, urea, amino acids, etc. thus, even true zero nitrate is not any issue if these others are sufficient, or may be a problem if these others are not sufficient.