★I am ALIVE★ (PLEASE READ) ★Tank almost ★Electrocuted★ me★ ( GFCI never Tripped ...MISSING GROUND PROBE) Passing on Lesson to All Reefers

[WallyB]

@wallyim what GFCI outlet do you recommend? Link? Im in an upstairs apartment so I cant really modify anything or change breakers. Also should i put a ground probe in my sump and display? Im sure I only need it in my sump but just thought I'd ask. Last question. Do I plug the ground probe straight into the wall or do I plug it into the GFCI out let and then my apex and everything else into the GFCI outlet as well? Thanks. Sorry for all the questions.

Im glad you are alive to teach others from this experience. I've only been reefing 3 years and have never really thought a ground probe or GFCI was "that important". Thank you from opening my eyes. I will make sure all of my reefing buds get ground probes and GFCI on their tanks if I have to buy it myself and physically install it on their tanks myself!

Every OUTLET in house, Deck, Bathroom (if wired Properly by a qualified Electrician) will go to same GROUND.
So every outlet will work with a Ground Probe.

But best to be safe and put your Ground Probe on the Same Outlet as your tank is running.
Best to not put into a power bar since that is just another point of unnecessary Failure.

I can't recommend what GFCI outlet to buy, but I will say, don't go buy something from Aliexpress China.
Buy Name brand like Levtron.


Most have LEDS' and some of the better ones "I read" constant Self Testing.

Best to Test yourself by pushing the TEST button.


GOOD QUESTION (Sump or Display)
I have probes in both, but not all 3 of my setups.
It's about protecting you and not fish.
So while yout tank id running and water flowing between tank and sump. Both are protected while water joins both.
If you turn off Return pump, and hose dries out a bit, they are disconnected, so the one with Probe is more protected.

And of course it matters where you have High Voltage AC.

If you have Low 12 volt DC pumps in tank. No need for probe unless your AC light fixture drops in.
Best to put the Probe where Heater is, since they are all AC, and they fail eventually, or can crack by mistake since glass..

 

[Brian W]

Every OUTLET in house, Deck, Bathroom (if wired Properly by a qualified Electrician) will go to same GROUND.
So every outlet will work with a Ground Probe.

But best to be safe and put your Ground Probe on the Same Outlet as your tank is running.
Best to not put into a power bar since that is just another point of unnecessary Failure.

I can't recommend what GFCI outlet to buy, but I will say, don't go buy something from Aliexpress China.
Buy Name brand like Levtron.


Most have LEDS' and some of the better ones "I read" constant Self Testing.

Best to Test yourself by pushing the TEST button.

Is there a multiple outlet GFCI bar that I can plug into my existing wall outlet? Or would the GFCI bar not technically be GFCI since the wall outlet is not GFCI?

Im afraid if I install a GFCI outlet myself or ask my apartment to install it they will tell me if I need it then I dont need the tank. This will just open up a whole can of worms unfortunately..dang I wish I was in a house.

 

[WallyB]

I FELL HAPPY that I at least OPENED some FOLKS EYE to this important Matter.

Glad I'm alive too ….so I can mount my frags to get even more happier.

Awareness is important and Talk to your Favourite Electrician for the Accurate Facts.

(ONE FACT I AM SURE ABOUT, is anything with Water, hooked up to AC with no GFCI is really Dangerous).

I'm not an expert...… I just like to be Safe around Salt Water, since I go in there more then my bathtub

 

[WallyB]

Is there a multiple outlet GFCI bar that I can plug into my existing wall outlet? Or would the GFCI bar not technically be GFCI since the wall outlet is not GFCI?

Im afraid if I install a GFCI outlet myself or ask my apartment to install it they will tell me if I need it then I dont need the tank. This will just open up a whole can of worms unfortunately..dang I wish I was in a house.

Here is how it works. (I explained it wrong last time...Sorry)

You only need ONE GFCI, that will protect any device (ie shut it off), that is plugged into the GFCI outlet.
But that ONE GFCI has to handle the 10/15 AMPS that your system needs. (Usually enough if you have LED lights, but not if you have Lots of T5's)

So you may want two GFCI's to split the Load a bit.
I did learn that if you really push the GFCI to the Limit, they fail more. Best to Half or at least 3/4 load them.

((( What I mean by fail, if they will still protect you, but might trigger off False. And sometimes they shut down, and never turn back on with the RESET BUTTON. That has happened to me, and I need to replace the GFCI)

That includes a power bar, that can have things plugged into THE GFCI outlet (and they will be protected too).

Basically if any device fault, the GFCI trips, and everything SHUT OFF. (not just the faulty device)
That is what you want. You tank to turn off if there is a shock problem.

Here is another option. (One example. There may be other better products like full power bars)

** PERFECT FOR THE APPARTMENT. No Wiring changes needed **

****** Just make sure the Unprotected END isn't where water will spill onto it. ***
Then from that splitter.... you can run power bars off of it and plug stuff into Power Bars.



** That above is a GFCI protected Extension Cord ** (Same thing as an outlet you permanently put in wall)
Don't confuse that with Surge Protection Power Bars which is for Lightning, or Ultility Company voltage Spikes.
Surge protection won't protect you from Ground Fault Shock. Just save your TV or computer.


So tonight I had stuff plugged into power bars that were plugged into 3 separate 3 GFCI WALL OUTLETs since I have many pumps, lights,

I first pulled the power bars to find what zone was bad.
Then I found the power bar with the device problem.... and started pulling out plug to find the bad faulty device.

 

[WallyB]

Just added a ground to my Amazon cart!

Great. One more Safe Reefer!!!

Now you will outlast your Corals (I hope both do well).
May you live long ….and may your Tank Prosper . (Spock said something like that )

Hire an electrician, or like me....I do it myself (but READ the INSTRUCTIONS two 3 times, and after wiring test)

NOTE about GFCI OUTLETS:

Some if not all/many,,,,will allow you do daisy chain regular outlets after the GFCI, and then the REGULAR outlets will also be protected. (But wiring must be correct)
In the Box you will get extra Stickers, to Properly mark all outlets that are GFCI protected (including the extra regular outlets hooked up AFTER THE GFCI outlet)

 

[Jeeperz]

GFCI works based on amp differential across ground/neutral. IF the GFCI was operating, and EVERYTHING in the tank was 3 prong AND correctly grounded by the manufacturer, a GFCI WOULD have done it's job with the slightest fault. They trip over the smallest issues. There are no ifs, no buts. There was a non grounded equipment or faulty GFCI that caused this, well besides the faulty equipment. I don't know what you soldered to what, the pic is unclear and is probably an unsafe and non code compliant "fix" for the issue. Maybe call a professional electrician, one that is a true professional, as there are a ton of hacks.

Sorry, I read your comment as a COMMON Breaker, OR GFCI PLUG. I only have a GFCI Plug (which works), not a GFCI breaker.

Maybe Double GFCI is safer if either GFCI isn't working. I still like the GFCI protection closer to Tank VS far away at breaker in some room behind a door/wall or far away.

But 2 or 10 GFCI's in series won't make things safer (with 3 Prong Plug) if no GROUND PROBE. (And Ground isn't Exposed on the 3 wire cord, under Water).

I hear you, about 2 Pronged Plugs, but it really depends on how things fail.
If a heater leaks, it should have a Ground inside to TRIP GFCI before it fills up. That is a dumb design.

But a Pump Cracking like my Hydro Koralia (3 of them), all replaced by Manufacterer for free (After Warranty)
If the Epoxy seal goes, and only wired exposed is the Hot Wire, but not the Ground, the Ground is useless for GFCI trip.
You still need a GROUNDED Tank (Water) to mitigate a partial Crack.

Another Example of a 3 Prong/Wire FAILING GFCI Trip....is when my urchin chewed thru the Insulation of the HOT Wire and not the Ground, or Neurtal wire. GFCI would not trip if Tank isn't GROUNDED. (And you get zap if you are Grounded)

 

[WallyB]

Well SUPRISE !! SUPRISE !! ( It wasn't the Sea Swirl after All ))) ANOTHER Hy

GFCI works based on amp differential across ground/neutral. IF the GFCI was operating, and EVERYTHING in the tank was 3 prong AND correctly grounded by the manufacturer, a GFCI WOULD have done it's job with the slightest fault. They trip over the smallest issues. There are no ifs, no buts. There was a non grounded equipment or faulty GFCI that caused this, well besides the faulty equipment. I don't know what you soldered to what, the pic is unclear and is probably an unsafe and non code compliant "fix" for the issue. Maybe call a professional electrician, one that is a true professional, as there are a ton of hacks.

That's solder to the Basement floor Metal Stud is temp for tonight (since that Spare probe I have isn't a plug in kind).
I actually added a probe (IN tank) since I ONLY HAD The (IN SUMP) probe (that fell out). But was properly plugged in.
Tomorrow, I will wire into True Ground wire in Outlet box (properly do it right when I have more time).

I hear your point about Correctly Grounded devices. True.
But I bet you won't find a 3 Pronged Device made for puttying into wet Fish Tanks (Doesn't exist).
Yes outside tank, but not for inside. ( I just noticed this now after thinking about it. Interesting)
LOOK AROUND what you have. GOOGLE. For a AC 3 Pronged Grounded In Water Piece of equipment.

I still think 3 pronged properly grounded devices can fail GFCI protected like an urchin chewing thru ONLY the HOT Wire Insulation . IF tank is not grounded, and the properly grounded devices in fish tank are insulated from the water. (COrrect?).

Simple RISK example: You are running an 3 Pronged extension cord. Has some invisible nick/cuts that have exposed "live" HOT copper wire.
The Cut part of the extension cord drops into your Tank/SUMP, while your friend is working inside tank and he is grounded (somehow)......... (Tank is NOT GROUNDED !! but has GFCI)... IS YOUR FRIEND SAFE?

Maybe the current differential still should work. (Didn't tonight. Didn't before).

so I googled how GFCI works. You are correct about the Current differential.

But the google description above shows this diagram.

and that Green wire show appliance is grounded, and (Tank Water=CASE)contact point if Engergized, must be GROUNDED.

The hot to neutral current imbalance is when something is grounded and current doesn't go to neutral, it goes to ground. (but you need a ground (ie tank ground probe), so GROUND IS NOT YOU and your heart)
If you tank is not grounded by a probe, the voltage just hovers in your tank (Like it did tonight). Only me touching it, did it flow to my finger tip (but not enough to trip GFCI).
MAYBE IF MY ARM was in the TANK the GFIC would have tripped, but I rather the GFCI trip before my ARM GOES IN.

Thus the Tank Ground Probe is needed for better protection/safety.
A 2 or 3 pronged cord can be damaged or chewed thru by an urchin.
Simply put..... 3 pronged devices with grounding would never be placed into tank water. They don't exist!!!
That is why AC pumps and heaters are only 2 pronged. (Not qualified for Grounding Proper SPECIFICATIONS)


Proper Titanium probe is safe for tank, and grounds tank for proper GFCI outlet protection should a 2 pronged device fail it's insulation. (Like what happened tonight).

Maybe too complicated for everyone (even me)

My PERSONAL SUMMARY.
- USE GFCI for Tank Safety (A MUST for Life Saving Protection)
- USE A ground probe for Extra Safety (Extra Live Saving Protection for a few bucks, no negatives)
- Use as much Low Voltage DC devices for your tank as possible (LOW is key, since High Voltage DC is actually more Dangerous than AC)

 

[WallyB]

SUPRISE!! SUPRISE. (IT WAS not the Sea Swirl After All) IT WAS another Hydro Koralia PUMP.

I went back to tidy up. And I noticed the Sea Swirl was STILL ROTATING (which I did a double take since I thought was unplugged after isolating the Fault).

The cords were tangled, so I kind of assumed it was the Sea Swirl in that Direction.
It was not the Sea Swirl that failed.

It was actually the Hydor Koralia pump that I just installed this week.
A used one (spare) sitting on shelf.

The company replaced 3-4 of mine for free. Since they all failed in the past.

I don't even want another free replacement!!! Never will buy one again!!

They are designed bad. That Stem that goes into the pump is stiff (so when you adjust pump angle), it puts stress on the pump housing.

I ACTUALLY have two other Hydro Pumps running on my other Tanks.
Going to remove them before they fail. Use for mixing salt or whatever.
Once I remove those, all my in-tank stuff will be Low Voltage DC (Except for AC heaters)

I actually googled about DC Heaters. They don't exist/won't exist.
Read that they would be just too big to design for DC.
So just buy the best, and few months ago my Ehiem failed. didn't crack, just seal went.
Thus another reason for a Ground Probe.

I'm concluding my analysis.

FRAG TIME!!!

 

[Jeeperz]

There has to be a circuit completed for electrocution to occur. Simply an open hot won't do it. You have to provide a path to ground so unless your finger is in the ground socket, or neutral, nothing will happen. That's how welders can stand in a puddle of water, touch the grounded metal, strike an arc, and not die. I've done it, I never die, each time. It's common as a welder.

 

[Matt Carden]

There has to be a circuit completed for electrocution to occur. Simply an open hot won't do it. You have to provide a path to ground so unless your finger is in the ground socket, or neutral, nothing will happen. That's how welders can stand in a puddle of water, touch the grounded metal, strike an arc, and not die. I've done it, I never die, each time. It's common as a welder.

I have been shocked more times than I can count while welding! The worst is changing the tungsten with sweaty gloves.

 

[Matt Carden]

Maybe @Young Frankenstein can comment on some of this since he's our "resident electrician "

 

[WallyB]

A little off topic, but I'm excited about this project....coming to an end (few days) to improve my SPS success.

I'm no HIGH VOLTAGE AC Expert. ELECTRICAL. I hated Electrical in School.

But I do love Low Voltage DC.

Why?

It's called Electronics.....

And here is my Electronic Project I'm working on. Almost Finished.
That's why I got the new Frags, and starting up things in the tank for SPS (endless failed attempts)

I'll have ALK Stability on all my two DT's, and EMPTY Frag Tank.

I will also have Calcium and Mag Stability since I DOSE ESV two part (Balanced dosing), so no need to monitor ALK/CACLIUM. (Just once in a while a manual checkup)

A DIY ALK MONITOR. Made from a lot of spare parts I have kicking around. Lot's of Re-use (like the Printer/Scanner Base)

Made it myself. Been at it for 4 months.
Should be finished in a week or so.

STANDALONE monitor. Hourly, daily, weekly, monthly testing....
Does 3 Tanks, Alk Accuracy 0.01 dkh. Single Regent. Web Control, Graphs, and integrates with Apex Fusion (optional)
Wifi, BlueTooth, 5x Kamoer Pumps (6volt), 4x LCD Displays, 2x OLED (1 color), and 1 Full Color LCD touch screen.

Master controller is Raspberry PI (3.3 Volts DC), and Slave Controller is Ardiuno (5 Volts DC)

WIll eventually Integrate with my DIY Doser, DIY Water changer to fully Automate my Setup.

WIll post a video of it running (Soon).
Pretty cool working robotics, AI and Computer Vision to make it work for the Water Testing Data.

I also love DC LED's and it's got plenty for Bell and Whistle Special Effect for Alerts/Alarms/Status.

This is first Full Blown Prototype lab. Planning to make a 1 tank mini version that will be much simpler.

SO I'm a DC guy, not AC. But I know what an High Voltage AC Zap Feels like.

 

[WallyB]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Having said that. WE can get back to the THREAD TOPIC "High Voltage Protection for your Tank"

I'd love to hear from @young Frankenstien (but he hasn't been around since 2012).
Maybe another "Expert" Electrician can chime in to explain things to us.

- The Welder Example is good example. Shows that you are safe if no ground (just like fish in the tank) tonight
---------> I bet Welders NEVER EVER touch both leads. (Regardless of standing in puddle or not)

- The Tank wasn't properly grounded when the Hot Wire on the Pump (in tank) was exposed due to cracking open.
----------> (GFCI DID NOT Trip) [without the probe in]
----------> GFCI (DID TRIP) with the Probe put back.

- Would the GFCI trip if I put my hand into the Tank Fully?

- Was I safe to put hand into tank with the GFCI (and no ground probe)? (Hot wire exposed in tank, LIVE)

- Would an Electrician (recommend using a ground probe) with AC Heaters in our Tanks that Fail as they age/accidents.
----------OR IS GFCI sufficient?

 

[Doctorgori]

I’ve said this soooo many times...tank safety should be lesson 1 right before all the nitrogen cycle stuff et et.... I’ve been shocked a few times ... I’m bald now but old and survived if that tell you sumthin...
The ground probe debate...gheez how many forums and how many pages has that debate raged on? I dunno, for 10-15 bucks I’m not seeing the big deal, get one....
...If your tank isn’t on a GFCI outlet, well you might wanna start reproducing now before it’s too late...
...buying SinoAmazon junk with no UL listing or any certification: pm me for winning lotto numbers...
...Home Depot sells outdoor outlet covers with clear domes...my tank has one..I’d show it here but too lazy to post pics...get one of those too
...go see the vinegar pump cleaning thread...
... I don’t trust lighting goosenecks and clamps (like Kessils, et) use monofilament line and thumbtacks as backup
...drip loops on all electrical cord before outlet plugs....zipties along the cord also work to channel water
..the heck with glass heaters ...Ill never own another eve tho I love ebo jaeger..go titanium

 

[New&no clue]

Does something like this kill your fish?

 

[GlassMunky]

I thought @Brew12 was the resident electrical guru

 

[Quietman]

100 milliamps (1/10 of an amp) over 1 second through your heart can kill you. (I've also heard two seconds but I'm not going to time it). The higher the current, the less time.

But a lower voltage (yes it's actually the current) can potentially kill you if your body resistance is low - cut on finger (no one ever has those working on tanks), elbow deep in saltwater, your head under a cabinet with metal glasses, etc. 30 volts/300 ohms (extreme low body resistance) = 0.1 amp.

All that I say to point out...you do not want your body to be completing the ground circuit to trip the GFCI (or the tripping the breaker which is going to take much longer (if it trips at all - 10/15 amp breakers aren't going to save you - those are to protect your house mainly)).

Get the grounding plug for your tank!!!

Quick edit - a grounding plug will be much better even if you don't have a GFCI - 110 volts/0 ohms will have enough current to trip a breaker. I'm not in any way saying you shouldn't have a GFCI outlet - you absolutely should, but older houses/local codes may not require GFCI and you may have GFCI planned soon as the electrician comes out, but even if just waiting, get the grounding plug anyway.

 

[sarcophytonIndy]

Should the Display Tank have a probe also? Or is one in the sump enough?

 

[Brew12]

I thought @Brew12 was the resident electrical guru

Thanks for the invite!

The Welder Example is good example. Shows that you are safe if no ground (just like fish in the tank) tonight

I actually think this is a bad example to use for fish in our tank. In a salt water tank the water is more conductive than the fish. It would be as if the fish were living in the ground wire. Same reason I hate the bird on a wire analogy for reefing. It just doesn't work.

The Tank wasn't properly grounded when the Hot Wire on the Pump (in tank) was exposed due to cracking open.
----------> (GFCI DID NOT Trip) [without the probe in]
----------> GFCI (DID TRIP) with the Probe put back.

This is the main reason I recommend running a GFCI with ground probe. Odds are that the exposed wire was copper. Copper will corrode more quickly with electricity running through it and release that copper into your tank. It will also generate heat which can melt the plastic and release other contaminants. I want that failed pump/heater/device de-energized as soon as it faults. It would be hard to electrocute a fish, but you could easily kill them with contaminants.

Would the GFCI trip if I put my hand into the Tank Fully?

That one is tougher. If you were wearing well insulated shoes and didn't touch anything else but the water odds are it wouldn't trip. If you were barefoot on concrete it should trip. Hard to say for anything in between.

Was I safe to put hand into tank with the GFCI (and no ground probe)? (Hot wire exposed in tank, LIVE)

Umm... I would say no. A GFCI is a great protective device but anything can fail. I see this situation like trying to cut your hand through cut resistant gloves. It's not what I would call safe. Hopefully the glove would stop the blade of the GFCI would trip, but I wouldn't test either on myself on purpose.

Would an Electrician (recommend using a ground probe) with AC Heaters in our Tanks that Fail as they age/accidents.
----------OR IS GFCI sufficient?

Many people who are against ground probes run them without knowing it. Most titanium heaters have a ground wire connected to the titanium housing. Some titanium heaters only have 2 wires and I've found some 3 wire versions not wired correctly, but by and large they are.

I will say that I won't run my system off of a single GFCI. My return pump and power heads are always off separate GFCI's. My display would be fine for 12hr+ with either of them tripped. If I lost everything it would deteriorate much more quickly.

 

[Brew12]

Should the Display Tank have a probe also? Or is one in the sump enough?

I only run one in the sump. As long as the return pump is running it will cover the entire system. I consider the few hours a month my return pump is off to not be a risk.