★I am ALIVE★ (PLEASE READ) ★Tank almost ★Electrocuted★ me★ ( GFCI never Tripped ...MISSING GROUND PROBE) Passing on Lesson to All Reefers

[GlassMunky]

Thanks for the invite!


I actually think this is a bad example to use for fish in our tank. In a salt water tank the water is more conductive than the fish. It would be as if the fish were living in the ground wire. Same reason I hate the bird on a wire analogy for reefing. It just doesn't work.


This is the main reason I recommend running a GFCI with ground probe. Odds are that the exposed wire was copper. Copper will corrode more quickly with electricity running through it and release that copper into your tank. It will also generate heat which can melt the plastic and release other contaminants. I want that failed pump/heater/device de-energized as soon as it faults. It would be hard to electrocute a fish, but you could easily kill them with contaminants.


That one is tougher. If you were wearing well insulated shoes and didn't touch anything else but the water odds are it wouldn't trip. If you were barefoot on concrete it should trip. Hard to say for anything in between.


Umm... I would say no. A GFCI is a great protective device but anything can fail. I see this situation like trying to cut your hand through cut resistant gloves. It's not what I would call safe. Hopefully the glove would stop the blade of the GFCI would trip, but I wouldn't test either on myself on purpose.


Many people who are against ground probes run them without knowing it. Most titanium heaters have a ground wire connected to the titanium housing. Some titanium heaters only have 2 wires and I've found some 3 wire versions not wired correctly, but by and large they are.

I will say that I won't run my system off of a single GFCI. My return pump and power heads are always off separate GFCI's. My display would be fine for 12hr+ with either of them tripped. If I lost everything it would deteriorate much more quickly.

It was actually a post of yours that got me to use GFCI. I setup 4 separate gfci lines that all controlled by my apex so I should get a notification of loss of power to those outlets should it trip. Thanks again for the build info on this DIY project @Brew12

 

[Brew12]

It was actually a post of yours that got me to use GFCI. I setup 4 separate gfci lines that all controlled by my apex so I should get a notification of loss of power to those outlets should it trip. Thanks again for the build info on this DIY project @Brew12

I love it!

 

[drawman]

It was actually a post of yours that got me to use GFCI. I setup 4 separate gfci lines that all controlled by my apex so I should get a notification of loss of power to those outlets should it trip. Thanks again for the build info on this DIY project @Brew12

I'm assuming these plug into your energy bar?

 

[Doctorgori]

Oh how timley....CASE in point.....not 5 minutes ago I got a nice lil jolt from a cheapo sinoAmazon uv filter
Note the moisture around the bulb

Risking my health or life and saving dollars .... Im sure any legal action against a Chinese manufacturer wont go as planned

 

[GlassMunky]

I'm assuming these plug into your energy bar?

Yes they would plug into the controller and be controlled the exact same way as normal.
They are basically just in-line gfci outlets.
@Brew12 did the write up, and can found here in R2R in one of his threads, I just can’t remember which one right now.

 

[ruskimax]

Oh please, I stick a coat hanger in the socket by my bed to wake up in the morning. When did we become so soft as a society? <lol>

 

[WallyB]

Thanks for the invite!


I actually think this is a bad example to use for fish in our tank. In a salt water tank the water is more conductive than the fish. It would be as if the fish were living in the ground wire. Same reason I hate the bird on a wire analogy for reefing. It just doesn't work.


This is the main reason I recommend running a GFCI with ground probe. Odds are that the exposed wire was copper. Copper will corrode more quickly with electricity running through it and release that copper into your tank. It will also generate heat which can melt the plastic and release other contaminants. I want that failed pump/heater/device de-energized as soon as it faults. It would be hard to electrocute a fish, but you could easily kill them with contaminants.


That one is tougher. If you were wearing well insulated shoes and didn't touch anything else but the water odds are it wouldn't trip. If you were barefoot on concrete it should trip. Hard to say for anything in between.


Umm... I would say no. A GFCI is a great protective device but anything can fail. I see this situation like trying to cut your hand through cut resistant gloves. It's not what I would call safe. Hopefully the glove would stop the blade of the GFCI would trip, but I wouldn't test either on myself on purpose.


Many people who are against ground probes run them without knowing it. Most titanium heaters have a ground wire connected to the titanium housing. Some titanium heaters only have 2 wires and I've found some 3 wire versions not wired correctly, but by and large they are.

I will say that I won't run my system off of a single GFCI. My return pump and power heads are always off separate GFCI's. My display would be fine for 12hr+ with either of them tripped. If I lost everything it would deteriorate much more quickly.

Thanks @Brew12 for the Educated answer.

That explains things.

I bet my faulty pump was faulty (electrifying my tank) when I put it in earlier in the week.
Prior to last night I was always standing on a Dry Core Floor in my Concrete floor basement. (So no solid ground connection).
Plus I always wore rubber shoe anyway.
Thus why I felt no zaps (earlier), and GFCI never tripped.

Last night with the Salt Water Spill (over the Dry core edge , onto Concrete floor, and over my Rubber Slippers.... connectivity was partially establish (and I felt the zap). When the probe wasn't in the sump but on the floor.

My investigating with Volt meter showed the Tank was exposed to electricity. (but no GFCI trip)
It was the unique situation that led me to the discovery of the Faulty pump.

To your point, about wanting to remove the defective pump, possibly leaching toxins into tank.
Having a ground probe would have tripped the GFCI right away, and that pump would have never gone in.

I was actually scratching my head why some of the SPS were slowly degrading (over last week+).
I had a new Red Dragon SPS that did well for a week and then all of a sudden it bleached.
I check my timing and it happened soon after pump went it. 3 days later.
Could have been the leachy pump.

So I'm all for GFCI/Ground probe setup. With good quality on both.

As far as where to place it (Sump or DT). I think both is safer.
However it depends where you have AC or higher risk of some kind of fault.
It also depends on your setup or how you maintain your tank.

In my case, last night I was going to turn off my return, and work in my DT with the Faulty pump. (So probe in Sump would have NOT been adequate...Better in DT)

Last time when my Urchin ate thru insulation on Power cord in Sump (Probe would have been better off in Sump)

So now I have probe in both (DT/Sump)

 

[WallyB]

Oh please, I stick a coat hanger in the socket by my bed to wake up in the morning. When did we become so soft as a society? <lol>

That is an dumb and insensitive reply. Not a joking matter when it come to possible electrocution.
Nothing more to say except that you should change your alarm clock since it may be doing damage.

 

[Brew12]

As far as where to place it (Sump or DT). I think both is safer.
However it depends where you have AC or higher risk of some kind of fault.
It also depends on your setup or how you maintain your tank.

Just to expound on this a bit. I only run one in my sump for cosmetic reasons. As long as the return pump is running, the flow from the pump/drains will make electrical connection through the entire system. I only see one situation where a probe in the DT would be beneficial. That is a scenario where a powerhead in the DT fails after turning off the return pump.
I still have the GFCI for personal protection in the event a pump fails while I'm working in the tank, and the amount of time I have my return pump off is minimal each month.

 

[WallyB]

Just to expound on this a bit. I only run one in my sump for cosmetic reasons. As long as the return pump is running, the flow from the pump/drains will make electrical connection through the entire system. I only see one situation where a probe in the DT would be beneficial. That is a scenario where a powerhead in the DT fails after turning off the return pump.
I still have the GFCI for personal protection in the event a pump fails while I'm working in the tank, and the amount of time I have my return pump off is minimal each month.

Thanks @Brew12

The choice is yours.

So to Close on this Thread FACTS, how about a real Live Experiment

"I MADE A "Electrifying VIDEO" !!!

TESTING GFCI (with and without Ground Probe).

REAL HIGH VOLTAGE TEST!! (Just like what happened in my Tank)

I'm just uploading the Video to YouTube.

IT WILL SHOW

(Why you SHOULD add a GFCI to your Aquarium Setup)

and
(Why you might choose to add a Ground Probe to your Tank, Sump or BOTH)

STAY TUNED!!!

 

[drawman]

Just to expound on this a bit. I only run one in my sump for cosmetic reasons. As long as the return pump is running, the flow from the pump/drains will make electrical connection through the entire system. I only see one situation where a probe in the DT would be beneficial. That is a scenario where a powerhead in the DT fails after turning off the return pump.
I still have the GFCI for personal protection in the event a pump fails while I'm working in the tank, and the amount of time I have my return pump off is minimal each month.

Hey Brew I was just thinking I usually turn off my heater and return via my apex when I do a water change. Lets say I just turn off the heater I'm guessing that would make the ground inactive? Either way may be a good idea to have a grounding probe in the display while doing water changes...

 

[Brian_68]

Well SUPRISE !! SUPRISE !! ( It wasn't the Sea Swirl after All ))) ANOTHER Hy

That's solder to the Basement floor Metal Stud is temp for tonight (since that Spare probe I have isn't a plug in kind).
I actually added a probe (IN tank) since I ONLY HAD The (IN SUMP) probe (that fell out). But was properly plugged in.
Tomorrow, I will wire into True Ground wire in Outlet box (properly do it right when I have more time).

I hear your point about Correctly Grounded devices. True.
But I bet you won't find a 3 Pronged Device made for puttying into wet Fish Tanks (Doesn't exist).
Yes outside tank, but not for inside. ( I just noticed this now after thinking about it. Interesting)
LOOK AROUND what you have. GOOGLE. For a AC 3 Pronged Grounded In Water Piece of equipment.

I still think 3 pronged properly grounded devices can fail GFCI protected like an urchin chewing thru ONLY the HOT Wire Insulation . IF tank is not grounded, and the properly grounded devices in fish tank are insulated from the water. (COrrect?).

Simple RISK example: You are running an 3 Pronged extension cord. Has some invisible nick/cuts that have exposed "live" HOT copper wire.
The Cut part of the extension cord drops into your Tank/SUMP, while your friend is working inside tank and he is grounded (somehow)......... (Tank is NOT GROUNDED !! but has GFCI)... IS YOUR FRIEND SAFE?

Maybe the current differential still should work. (Didn't tonight. Didn't before).

so I googled how GFCI works. You are correct about the Current differential.

But the google description above shows this diagram.

and that Green wire show appliance is grounded, and (Tank Water=CASE)contact point if Engergized, must be GROUNDED.

The hot to neutral current imbalance is when something is grounded and current doesn't go to neutral, it goes to ground. (but you need a ground (ie tank ground probe), so GROUND IS NOT YOU and your heart)
If you tank is not grounded by a probe, the voltage just hovers in your tank (Like it did tonight). Only me touching it, did it flow to my finger tip (but not enough to trip GFCI).
MAYBE IF MY ARM was in the TANK the GFIC would have tripped, but I rather the GFCI trip before my ARM GOES IN.

Thus the Tank Ground Probe is needed for better protection/safety.
A 2 or 3 pronged cord can be damaged or chewed thru by an urchin.
Simply put..... 3 pronged devices with grounding would never be placed into tank water. They don't exist!!!
That is why AC pumps and heaters are only 2 pronged. (Not qualified for Grounding Proper SPECIFICATIONS)


Proper Titanium probe is safe for tank, and grounds tank for proper GFCI outlet protection should a 2 pronged device fail it's insulation. (Like what happened tonight).

Maybe too complicated for everyone (even me)

My PERSONAL SUMMARY.
- USE GFCI for Tank Safety (A MUST for Life Saving Protection)
- USE A ground probe for Extra Safety (Extra Live Saving Protection for a few bucks, no negatives)
- Use as much Low Voltage DC devices for your tank as possible (LOW is key, since High Voltage DC is actually more Dangerous than AC)

The GFCI is designed to trip at a current level that will not harm you, even without a ground probe in the tank. You will feel it though. Just like the example of a 2 prong hairdryer dropped into a bathtub with you in it. The ground probe will make it trip quicker though as it is a direct connection to ground not thru you.

For those that power their tanks from two separate outlets in the house one needs to make sure they are from the same phase coming into the house when using GFCI, otherwise you need two GFCI, one for each phase.

 

[WallyB]

The GFCI is designed to trip at a current level that will not harm you, even without a ground probe in the tank. You will feel it though. Just like the example of a 2 prong hairdryer dropped into a bathtub with you in it. The ground probe will make it trip quicker though as it is a direct connection to ground not thru you.

I guess what you are saying....is GFCI is SAFE (without Ground probe) if the GFCI trips with the small current needed (Triggered by you hand going into water, if you are grounded).

However, I don't like shocks when it come to hands in water (PERIOD).
What if the Pump/Heater failure happens when I already deep into Tank, and GFCI doesn't fail right away.

Or the shock startles me, while I'm imbalanced on a stool deep into my tank!!

Also as you will see in the video, the Faultly Pump with an Open Crack, exposing a live wire into the Salt Water (Continues to run)…. Probe goes in (Everything Trips OFF)

As Brew12 stated in the reply below.....

This is the main reason I recommend running a GFCI with ground probe. Odds are that the exposed wire was copper. Copper will corrode more quickly with electricity running through it and release that copper into your tank. It will also generate heat which can melt the plastic and release other contaminants. I want that failed pump/heater/device de-energized as soon as it faults. It would be hard to electrocute a fish, but you could easily kill them with contaminants.

 

[WallyB]

Hey Brew I was just thinking I usually turn off my heater and return via my apex when I do a water change. Lets say I just turn off the heater I'm guessing that would make the ground inactive? Either way may be a good idea to have a grounding probe in the display while doing water changes...

Heater (If TWO pronged Glass) isn't grounded. So it doesn't improve or make GFCI function work any worse.
The Good reason to turn off heater is if you accidentally crack it, it won't electrify your tank (Should the GFCI not be working properly)

HOWEVER, if you have a Titanium Heater (3 Prong)…..It MIGHT be grounded, and before trusting it I would check that the Ground PRONG on the Plug in side is connected to the Metal outside of the Heater. (With a multimeter). If hooked up to Apex (Even if you turn the OUTLET "off" the ground is plugged in (assuming apex is plugged into a GFCI outlet)

 

[Quietman]

Safety note: Yes GFCI are designed for personal protection. But that also assumes it's working correctly. Repeated surges, lightning strikes, etc can damage the GFCI sensor rendering it worse than useless because people assume it's functioning. Test it often, especially if your household electricity experience surges, power outages, etc.

If you "feel" a shock never assume it's safe because GFCI didn't trip.

Use a grounding probe as added safety.

 

[WallyB]

For those that power their tanks from two separate outlets in the house one needs to make sure they are from the same phase coming into the house when using GFCI, otherwise you need two GFCI, one for each phase.

I never hear of that. Maybe I misunderstood your point.
Sounds like you are saying the 2nd NON GFCI outlet running your tank will somehow be safe with the OTHER outlet running your tank BEING a GFCI. (I highly doubt that is true).

Both Outlets MUST be GFCI protected (that are running your tank)……

The 2nd Outlet Regular outlet can be wired properly to the First GFCI outlet (thus both become GFCI protected).

Some folks don't know, that there are GFCI (Outlets) and GFCI (Breakers). They do the same things but in two different locations/setups.

Maybe you are talking about the PANEL and GFCI breaker.
I believe what you mean is.... if you have a GFCI breaker protecting a series of outlets, you can run your tank off any of those. And you point is don't use another outlet not on the GFCI series.
That is the same as a series of outlet off a GFCI-Outlet.
THAT IS WHY GFCI's come with Stickers, to properly label EVERY OUTLET that is Ground-Fault protected.

Is that what you meant? Best to be clear and be on the safe side. Not to mislead folks to make a error on safety hookup.

I still don't get the Same Phase (INTO HOUSE) comment. Can you clarify?

 

[WallyB]

The Video is almost uploaded. (40%)

You can see GFCI & Probes in action on the Faulty pump and cut cord too (in salt water)

And be your own Judge.

 

[WallyB]

.

 

[KrisReef]

I am still a bit shaken up, since I was going to really put my arms DEEP into tank while Standing on Stool (after raising the Lights)

Not going to do that tonight till I fully check things over.

This is my setup that I re-did just a year ago.

I spent like 3 months doing a RENO and did Super Neat Wiring.

Tidy Wiring is important (It helped me find the problem quickly TONIGHT).

But Tidy wiring isn't enough. You need proper GFCI wiring (which MUST INCLUDE A GROUND PROBE).
A proper REEF TANK ground probe is made of Titanium, NOT Copper since Copper is bad for Salt Water Tanks.
For $20 a good probe will make your tank safer. Ignore any wives tales that say Ground Probes have negative effects on Fish/Corals. Better Fish then negative on you. (Better to fix any stray voltage then ignore things by having no ground probe).

Nice looking set-up. Thanks for the reminder. I have a ground probe in my sump and in my main tank. I noticed recently that my sump ground had also been knocked out somehow, same as yours was. I figured mine was removed by my wife after she increased my life insurance policy recently?

I'm glad you lived to write this tale of warning. I'm in Limbo myself.

 

[WallyB]

Oh please, I stick a coat hanger in the socket by my bed to wake up in the morning. When did we become so soft as a society? <lol>

That is an dumb and insensitive reply. Not a joking matter when it come to possible electrocution.
Nothing more to say except that you should change your alarm clock since it may be doing damage.

Hey @ruskimax , my apology for the negative comment, while being a bit touchy after the Zap and concerned for Safety of my Wife, kids and me.

I assume the joke was to lighten up the mood. I can handle that.

Didn't plan this but I cracked a joke about your comment in my Video. (At the Very end).
Wasn't done on purpose...It just blurted out. (Hope you enjoy it).