2 Hour DOA... What is wrong with this forum

[freshy&salty]

We definitely live in a different age. There used to be a time when scammers and con artists were looked at as crooked, nowadays its treated as a profession and its the buyers fault for being scammed. I hate millennial thinking.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

Exactly! Just go and help keep your lfs in business

Nor everyone has a lfs. I will drive 3-4 hours to one. But have done online from known sellers.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

2 hr doa does not work for me. I had an online order of 40 frags took me more than two hrs to match the packing list and open the bags. But all arrived alive and were still doing ok two days later.

 

[burningmime]

1-2 weeks is a bit long, especially for SPS that can go downhill fast depending on tank conditions. If 5 days after you put the coral into the tank, it's covered in AEWs, it *could* be from the vendor, but you should have dipped (and it could also be from your tank).

But 2 hours is a ridiculously small window and it's protecting the vendor over the buyer, which IMO is a poor policy, especially when vendors are so anonymous and feedbakc is hard to find. "The market will decide" is fine to say in a market with perfect information, but there tends to be very little information around for either party.

 

[DropoffCorals]

Hello,

I’ve read through a majority of the responses here and just wanted to add a sellers point of view.

We have the standard 2 hour DOA, however if something arrives questionable, we extend. Anything beyond that does put the seller at risk because so much can occur outside of the sellers control.

Now if we get a message 6 hours later and the coral is not showing signs of opening up, we will do what’s right for the customer and extend the coverage. The key is contact and communication.

I think the bigger issue is sellers who don’t cover their pieces if there is a delay by UPS or FedEx which happens now more than ever with the volume of shipping being done in this Covid environment. Most sellers will not cover and state on their website or DOA policy that they won’t.

I see lots of people on here who say they don’t want to risk buying online,
however if you find the right vendor who has experience packing and shipping and holds corals before selling to ensure a 100% healthy coral, you will find there is no risk.

 

[DinoMagnet]

2hrs does seem a bit too short imo but it's also not the sellers responsibility to find out if your tank is ready and then trust your answer enough to gamble $1500. How often do we see brand new reefers on here asking why all of their corals and nems are melting? And their parameters are perfect!...... Should the lfs always take the loss on those corals and nems?

I concur! As a new reefer myself it’s up to me to be “up on game” with my tank and the state it’s in. It’s like going to look for a high performance car, it’s not the salesman’s job to figure out whether I have the driving skills for the Lamborghini or not.

 

[HuduVudu]

Ive been noticing a trend (more like a tradition) in the marketplace that people sell their corals and fish with a 2 hour or so DOA (Dead on Arrival) now as I look at this I started to wonder... what the heck does that mean. Does it mean if your coral comes bleached, which doesn’t happen in such a short time, the guy will give you a refund. Or does it mean that a fish that comes breathing heavily and upside down will not be refunded. The logic in this is that NO There is no insurance for the buyer not only will your coral coral come slightly alive but will die in the next hour but that’s not a sellers fault... RIGHT. When I look at someone selling a master torch or OG torch for 1500$ and on the bottom it says standard 2 hour DOA. Not only does that mean that they won’t ensure that it survives after getting to your house but if you don’t report it within 2 HOURS of arriving he won’t refund you either. Now this hasn’t happened to me but the thought someone could be so obnoxious and rude to do something like this to this community hurts my soul. If you are confident that your coral is healthy and are a responsible seller selling something rare and of great value, is it not your obligation to discuss with your buyer if his tanks ready and then if so Insure your product for at least 24 hours after arrival (and even that’s pushing it)

You have never been on the other side of a transaction.

 

[Bepis]

You have never been on the other side of a transaction.

I understand the buyers side but still don’t think 2 HOURS is justice. You may as well say DOA guarantee that you must report within 2 hours

 

[HuduVudu]

I understand the buyers side but still don’t think 2 HOURS is justice. You may as well say DOA guarantee that you must report within 2 hours

Like I said you have never been on the other side of the transaction.

You think every customer is like you ... good, worth dealing with. You think that everyone you know is like you ... good, worth dealing with. You are right ... 90% of the time. Unfortunately for the sellers 10% can be the difference between your business surviving or collapsing.

The frag sellers will tip toe around the issue, they don't want to offend you. They want you to buy from them so they won't say what is the truth. The truth is that 10% of their customers are pure garbage. Business is ugly and until you have been on the other side of it you can't even imagine the things that people will do for money, for clout. Let me repeat you can't even imagine. I have run several failed businesses and a successful one. The successful one I finally learned to screen out the garbage. It isn't easy to figure out who is a good customer and who is garbage. It is even harder turning away money when you know that is the lifeblood that keeps the business going. It takes a lot of thought and a feeling out of the market and an introspection of yourself. New business owners go two ways with it, everyone is garbage or everyone is a great customer, either one of those choices will result in the failure of a business.

Please walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you condemn.

 

[Treefer32]

I found a coral vendor about 6 hours from where I live that he's a sole proprieter and treats his corals as living animals not as decorative pieces (which they are living animals). He asks me after every order how things arrived, if anything was damaged. A Scoly had some slight flesh damage that I sent him, he said he needs to pack things better. I didn't think much of the damage, it's doing well 6 months later. But, he aims for perfection. He always sends me extra corals when I order and prices aren't horrible (all coral prices are ridiculous now!) So, finding the right seller is key to getting good quality corals that will survive.

I wish there was a more social reefing scene where I live, but, for now, during a pandemic especially, I'll settle for a coral order every now and then from a coral reseller I trust.

 

[BoomCorals]

With so many quality venders offering much longer guarantees, why are people still supporting folks with these ridiculous 2 hour DOA only policies? It says a lot about a seller if that's the best they can do. I have a 14 day guarantee and have been pleasantly surprised to find MOST people do not attempt to take advantage of us for it. There's always a bad apple out there, but I'd say the norm is people just want the assurance if something goes wrong, they wont be left high and dry. This has been the worst year in memory for Fedex problems, but I still see no reason to make the buyer pay for their incompetence. I put myself in the shoes of the buyer and how I'd feel if seller just said, sorry I can't help you, don't like it go somewhere else (similar to how Fedex treats us now). I'd much rather have a happy customer.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Some exceptions are made for shipping delays.

 

[Rubberfrog]

I'm not a big fan of two hour doa guarantees, so I don't typically order online. However, I don't begrudge the seller. They're offering a product and it's up to me to decide if I like the terms.

No hurt feelings that they don't offer a 2 year guarantee at 50% of the lfs price, plus fast overnight shipping.

 

[HuduVudu]

(similar to how Fedex treats us now)

I really wished we could get some real competition in this market.

Hopefully with them all raising their rates and their horrible customer service someone will think that there is a hole in the market.

 

[BoomCorals]

Hopefully with them all raising their rates and their horrible customer service someone will think that there is a hole in the market.

I agree. I've started discussion with a third party that offers insurance and will cover the shipping and loss if orders take longer than expected to be delivered. If it turns out to be economical I will defiantly be making the switch. Knowing how insurance works though, if the shipping service continues to go downhill, the premiums will most likely become prohibitive. But just like a customer not wanting to support a coral business with a less than desirable DOA policy, I don't want to support a shipping company with zero consequence shipping agreement. Let's just hope the shipping issues will resolve themselves when COVID is no longer an available excuse.

 

[HuduVudu]

This This This ...

Another small business shut down.

Hey guys, I'll try not to make this a rant. As I am sure some of you know I transitioned into making specialized nano reefing gear in the middle of 2020 as a way to offset my loss of losing my main business. To date, I have done over 200 sales and have lots of happy customers. I've had a few...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[burningmime]

Like I said you have never been on the other side of the transaction.

You think every customer is like you ... good, worth dealing with. You think that everyone you know is like you ... good, worth dealing with. You are right ... 90% of the time. Unfortunately for the sellers 10% can be the difference between your business surviving or collapsing.

The frag sellers will tip toe around the issue, they don't want to offend you. They want you to buy from them so they won't say what is the truth. The truth is that 10% of their customers are pure garbage. Business is ugly and until you have been on the other side of it you can't even imagine the things that people will do for money, for clout. Let me repeat you can't even imagine. I have run several failed businesses and a successful one. The successful one I finally learned to screen out the garbage. It isn't easy to figure out who is a good customer and who is garbage. It is even harder turning away money when you know that is the lifeblood that keeps the business going. It takes a lot of thought and a feeling out of the market and an introspection of yourself. New business owners go two ways with it, everyone is garbage or everyone is a great customer, either one of those choices will result in the failure of a business.

Please walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you condemn.

Doesn't that apply to vendors just as much as to customers? Vendors who would ship out a damaged/sick frag and then deny any claims (or hope that it passes the 2 hour window). They can keep doing it until they're called out, then just create a new account.

 

[HuduVudu]

Doesn't that apply to vendors just as much as to customers? Vendors who would ship out a damaged/sick frag and then deny any claims (or hope that it passes the 2 hour window). They can keep doing it until they're called out, then just create a new account.

Absolutely!

People inhabit both sides of the transaction.

Not understanding the failings of both sides puts you in a weak position. Good business, contrary to popular opinion is hard to do, and it isn't all about money.

 

[Bepis]

Like I said you have never been on the other side of the transaction.

You think every customer is like you ... good, worth dealing with. You think that everyone you know is like you ... good, worth dealing with. You are right ... 90% of the time. Unfortunately for the sellers 10% can be the difference between your business surviving or collapsing.

The frag sellers will tip toe around the issue, they don't want to offend you. They want you to buy from them so they won't say what is the truth. The truth is that 10% of their customers are pure garbage. Business is ugly and until you have been on the other side of it you can't even imagine the things that people will do for money, for clout. Let me repeat you can't even imagine. I have run several failed businesses and a successful one. The successful one I finally learned to screen out the garbage. It isn't easy to figure out who is a good customer and who is garbage. It is even harder turning away money when you know that is the lifeblood that keeps the business going. It takes a lot of thought and a feeling out of the market and an introspection of yourself. New business owners go two ways with it, everyone is garbage or everyone is a great customer, either one of those choices will result in the failure of a business.

Please walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you condemn.

Oh no I understand. With the fragility, inconsistency of a corals demeanor, and the amount of things that can go wrong I understand the lack of a extensive guarantee. I meant no belittlement nor did I wish to condemn any person or their business. Scammers are a big problem and I understand the restraint and caution one must take as a seller. Nevertheless I still think the standards are low and the prices are high. Now 2 Hour DOA is up to interpretation: Does it mean that if something happens out of the control of the seller that this 2 hour DOA will be extended or will he even insure such a mishap at all? All this is seller specific and I’m sure many have a entire array of differentiating policies. As I understand DOA stands for dead-on-arrival does this mean that only if the merchandise dies during shipping (which doesn’t happen usually since the subject of interest will mostly likely still be alive but near death) or does it mean that if it’s near death on arrival it will be replaced or refunded.

My view is that of if a live product arrives sick, dying, or mortally injured, if reported immediately to the seller should be insured for the next 24 hours which are usually the make or break moment for livestock, additionally I think that the buyer must provide the seller with pics upon arrival, proof of death, time of death, his tanks parameters, tanks age, and other vital information such as lights (if sale is of coral)

Regarding disasters, mishaps, delays, and etc that are all out of control of both seller and buyer I believe that the seller can deny liability. In such cases I think the smartest thing to do would be to contact the shipping service and file a claim.

Another matter is extremely sensitive livestock per say a moorish idol, certain acros and others usually titled expert only
I think that the seller could and should be able to deny a extended warranty, this is due to the fact that the seller has much less control over the health of such a specimen especially after arrival and in such a case a perfectly healthy specimen could be improperly cared for by someone unprepared and ignorant of the husbandry and requirements of such a creature.

I don’t like being accused of being inconsiderate of someone else’s perspective and views. Personally I grew up watching my brother create his eBay business in our room and basement snd watched the difficulty of a small business (that lacked capital) having to deal with scammer trying to weasel products worth a few hundred dollars threw false claims, denying credit cards, and other incredibly stupid ways. As such I do understand a bit about liability and the side of a seller.

I don’t want this thread to suddenly become a place about our feelings so let’s move on and try to be as considerate and accepting of other views and opinions as possible. If I have been close minded in the smallest I am sorry and will try to to be as openminded and respectful as possible.

Avi

 

[rkpetersen]

Nothing but bad experiences with private sellers here.
Stopped going that route a couple years ago, and haven't regretted it.