2 Hour DOA... What is wrong with this forum

[Saltyreef]

That is great and your choice.

Yes. Yes it is

Not paying vendor prices is even better!

 

[Bnutz]

Forums are a place for information. A few sales are ok, but if your only threads are selling threads then it becomes a business.

 

[Tiki Reef Joshua]

I’ve never understood people being upset that other people don’t do what they want them to. If you don’t want the risk than don’t buy... the market determines what the majority are willing to risk.

 

[Tiki Reef Joshua]

But people who can’t do or don’t do LOVE telling others how they should do.

 

[Saltyreef]

Forums are a place for information. A few sales are ok, but if your only threads are selling threads then it becomes a business.

R2R tries to curb this by 30 days minimum membership and a minimum # of posts.
Should be upped though lol.

 

[Sarcazian]

Dont like it?
Dont buy it......order from a vendor lol.

Filing claims with credit card companies on a piece of coral that dies long after recieving is pretty childish.

Luckly MOST of my buyers dont need refunds and are repeat customers

Its all about establishing trust.

I'm not sure a vendor is better... I picked up a bunch of items (low end) from a vendor supported here. No need to mention names since I think we realize that things don't always make it or that it could be user error?

I picked up my first monti's in that shipment (green and red) and the green didn't look great, but it was green and I didn't know any better. A day or two later it starting turning white/bleaching and maybe that was my fault for the cheap LED over the QT (2010-2011 era LED) or something else was wrong. I take the blame on that one and we learn by our mistakes. Granted, it wasn't a $1500 piece or anywhere near it.

I lost some snails, hermits, and two (of three) peppermint shrimp in under 5 days, but again it's sort of expected or always ways for me. The lost shrimp may have been related to the molt.

 

[Bepis]

I’ve never understood people being upset that other people don’t do what they want them to. If you don’t want the risk than don’t buy... the market determines what the majority are willing to risk.

I understand it’s buy at your own risk but but still I believe there should be some more liability on both side of the sale. As I said originally a buyer should understand the requirement of a coral and the seller should make sure that the buyer knows that.
Reef2reef is a friendly forum and shorting people is not what friends do. We should back each other, help each other, and ensure success for one another. And denying the buyer the assurance that the buyer is confident in the health of his corals doesn’t apply to that.

Further proof of this https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2hr-doa-policy-do-not-resuscitate.794609/

 

[elysics]

Well if the buyer doesn't complain within the two (or even one) hour given, that means that either the coral arrived fine and got sick from being in the tank, the buyer didn't look closely enough to determine if it arrived fine, or the buyer does see that it didn't arrive fine but doesn't want to make a claim.

All three aren't really the sellers fault and the policy prevents a large amount of case 1 happening and people claiming case 2 or 3 and wanting their money back.

 

[burningmime]

Well if the buyer doesn't complain within the two (or even one) hour given, that means that either the coral arrived fine and got sick from being in the tank, the buyer didn't look closely enough to determine if it arrived fine, or the buyer does see that it didn't arrive fine but doesn't want to make a claim.

All three aren't really the sellers fault and the policy prevents a large amount of case 1 happening and people claiming case 2 or 3 and wanting their money back.

This seems to ignore the entire point of the OP. Can you tell the difference between a sick coral vs one that just has retracted polyps the second you open the bag? Every coral I've ordered online (except maybe some shrooms) has looked shrivelled up and stresssed from spending the night in a bag. You're basically saying "the buyer should be a marine biologist and be able to tell a sick coral right away".

This type of attitude also incentivizes buyers to make claims on corals that might or might not survive instead of trying to save it. For a fish, if you saw signs of it dying, you might be financially better off flushing the fish instead of putting it in QT/hospital, just because you can say it died. Which is bad for everyone involved, most of all the fish.

 

[elysics]

This seems to ignore the entire point of the OP. Can you tell the difference between a sick coral vs one that just has retracted polyps the second you open the bag? Every coral I've ordered online (except maybe some shrooms) has looked shrivelled up and stresssed from spending the night in a bag. You're basically saying "the buyer should be a marine biologist and be able to tell a sick coral right away".

This type of attitude also incentivizes buyers to make claims on corals that might or might not survive instead of trying to save it. For a fish, if you saw signs of it dying, you might be financially better off flushing the fish instead of putting it in QT/hospital, just because you can say it died. Which is bad for everyone involved, most of all the fish.

When i buy stuff online, especially from private sellers, i send the seller pictures of what arrived either way. If it looks bad i just change the text. Making a claim doesn't only mean that you immediately toss it in the trash and get your money back. If a coral doesn't look so hot, you can still send the seller a picture of it and then agree on monitoring it for a few days and then seeing whether it'll spring back or you get your money back. It's in the sellers financial interest to agree to doing that, they might even suggest it. That's still "making a claim", and very different from saying nothing for days and then suddenly "my coral is white, i want my money back".

With fish too, you can "make a claim", and then put it in QT/hospital, if it makes it then fine, if not you get your money back. What's important is that you give the seller feedback that the shipping didn't go well and that there is a potential problem in need of fixing before doing all that.

When you buy an appliance or something, you are supposed to do the same, check if it's working and all parts are included etc., not use it for weeks and then suddenly complain that it was damaged in shipping or things are missing.

 

[SaltISlife]

I never buy stuff online.. did one time with discuss. Spent like 800$ on em. They were packaged poorly and the box wasnt marked so ups didnt know what it is.

Had 4 dead discus in it and the shop never refunded me.

If i buy or sell on marketplace its for local people only.

 

[jaxteller007]

Exactly! Just go and help keep your lfs in business

Another reason to buy local.

Not everyone has that option. Some of us don't have good LFS nearby and local meet ups, frag swaps, reef shows, etc have been off the table for most people since early last year.

 

[redeyejedi]

I think its because its a risk for the person selling and the person buying. From the sellers point of view they want to know it arrived alive because as said before, who knows what the buyers husbandry is like and the condition of their tank.

From the buyers point of view they couldn't view the item in person so its a risk of how well it was package and the condition of said item in the first place. Always two sides to a argument.

I wont buy online for the purpose of i like to view what im buying first.

 

[ClownWrangler]

The main issue I see with this type of policy is a moral one. It likely results in alot of aquatic life being sentenced to death prematurely in cases where the animals arrive in iffy condition in order to meet the 2 hour window for a claim. This happened to me recently, where I just wanted to give an anemone a few more hours to see if it would recover and met hostility from the seller by doing so. In hindsight, maybe I should have killed it withing the 2 hour window just to be safe since I knew there was a good chance it wouldn’t make it. Additionally, it’s not unheard of for a delivery person to backdate delivery times a few hours to make their stats look good when they are running late.

 

[homer1475]

Standard policy from most vendors and/or hobbyists that sell corals. It's to protect the seller from false claims. The seller is only responsible for the coral till it reaches your door. Very similar to your LFS. FYI most LFS's I've been into do not guarantee salt water merch at all.

Why should a seller be responsible for anything that goes into your tank? They have no way of knowing whether your a newb who set up your tank yesterday, or an old salt that has been at this for years. So why should they be liable for a coral that might just up and die in 2 days because your tank wasn't ready for it?

Think of it this way......

Your a seller selling me a coral, you do not have a 2 hour DOA policy. I get my coral in the mail and all is fine. My tank suffer a catastrophic mass die off(crash if you will) the next day or even 2 days from when I received the coral. Now because you do not have a DOA policy, I contact you showing a dead white skeleton 2 days later. Now what do you do? It's not your fault as the seller the coral died, its solely my own. But in your eyes you should be liable, no?

Now take that exact scenario over the next couple years, your replacing corals that were fine when you shipped out, and fine when received, but died days later. How much coral/money will you be out in a couple years? Probably enough that it would force you out of business.

 

[Biokabe]

This seems to ignore the entire point of the OP. Can you tell the difference between a sick coral vs one that just has retracted polyps the second you open the bag? Every coral I've ordered online (except maybe some shrooms) has looked shrivelled up and stresssed from spending the night in a bag. You're basically saying "the buyer should be a marine biologist and be able to tell a sick coral right away".

This type of attitude also incentivizes buyers to make claims on corals that might or might not survive instead of trying to save it. For a fish, if you saw signs of it dying, you might be financially better off flushing the fish instead of putting it in QT/hospital, just because you can say it died. Which is bad for everyone involved, most of all the fish.

Honestly? Yes, I can, most of the time. Whenever I've gotten a coral that I thought looked dead vs. stressed, I've been right probably 75-85% of the time. It comes with experience... which, honestly, without that experience, you probably shouldn't be buying from a vendor with a 2 hour DOA policy. I have that experience, and I probably wouldn't buy from someone with such a policy either.

But that's my choice, and them choosing to only offer a 2 hour policy is their choice as well. So long as it's advertised clearly and the buyer knows what they're getting into, I don't see anything wrong with such a policy.

 

[SaltISlife]

Hey at least its 2 hour DOA lol, local fish stores these days where im at, dont even have a warrenty period on corals.

They used too, but now its like buy at your own risk, and tbh i think thats kinda shady. Im not saying hey i want a refund a week after i got the coral, but 24-48 hours. Ive bought corals from a local store once that bleached out for some reason when it was in the bag for only 45 minutes driving back home.

I took pics and showed the owner after calling and he got nasty with me on the phone, this same guy i bought a dragon soul torch from the other day, when i got home i noticed it was developing brown jelly disease not even 10 min taking it outa the bag.. Its still alive, and i think its still alive due to me blasting it with flow to keep the jelly off the coral.. But when i called him he gave me attitude again.

Honestly i hate people with attitude problems. I was nice on the phone and i dont like people talking to me like that, i decided to go back to the store, gave him the coral back demanded my money back and threatend id do a charge back if he didnt. Suffice to say he paid me my money back, and before i left i gave him the middle finger. I wont be talked too on the phone like that. I wont be going back to that place you can count on that.

 

[davilahope]

Here's my 2 cents.. I don't like 2 hour doa policies ill probably never buy from a seller that only provides 2 hour doa policy again and ill probably only stick to @WWC from now on because they have an awesome doa policy plus they're always healthy and hardy! I like shopping their eBay auctions and their live sales on here are awesome too!!

 

[Augus7us]

I've thought about this since its new to me, having been out of the hobby a while.

You have to have a doa policy. You can't sell a coral and refund on the premise you're going to ask about water parameters or pictures of the tank. So how would you refund two days later? Five days later? That policy is just open for abuse and headaches.

Here is a scenario I would like to hear you guys tell me how it should be handled if 2 hour DOA didn't exist. A guy sets his tank up a week ago and buys two corals from you for 500. He sets them up and they are dead 3 days later. Do you refund his money?

Now keep in mind you do not know this guys tank was setup a week ago.

 

[Servillius]

Ive been noticing a trend (more like a tradition) in the marketplace that people sell their corals and fish with a 2 hour or so DOA (Dead on Arrival) now as I look at this I started to wonder... what the heck does that mean. Does it mean if your coral comes bleached, which doesn’t happen in such a short time, the guy will give you a refund. Or does it mean that a fish that comes breathing heavily and upside down will not be refunded. The logic in this is that NO There is no insurance for the buyer not only will your coral coral come slightly alive but will die in the next hour but that’s not a sellers fault... RIGHT. When I look at someone selling a master torch or OG torch for 1500$ and on the bottom it says standard 2 hour DOA. Not only does that mean that they won’t ensure that it survives after getting to your house but if you don’t report it within 2 HOURS of arriving he won’t refund you either. Now this hasn’t happened to me but the thought someone could be so obnoxious and rude to do something like this to this community hurts my soul. If you are confident that your coral is healthy and are a responsible seller selling something rare and of great value, is it not your obligation to discuss with your buyer if his tanks ready and then if so Insure your product for at least 24 hours after arrival (and even that’s pushing it)

I am not currently selling corals so please don't get the idea I'm advertising here.

But I have in the past and when I have I've always offered a 14 day guarantee. I have more of a problem getting people to let me know if there is a problem than I've ever had with people taking advantage or coral losses due to bad tanks.

I get it, because as a buyer I hate having to pass on the bad news, ask for a refund, etc. I feel bad for the vendor, end up not telling them about minor losses, then down the road deciding I don't want to use that vendor because I'm not sure about their corals. Which is just stupid, but there it is.

I think most vendors would rather know about problems. They know each loss they hear about is hiding a few they didn't. And the truth is corals are delicate animals. We don't really think about it too much, but corals from frag swaps die, corals from your lfs die, corals that get shipped die. Even when they go to great tanks, sometimes it just doesn't work out.

If someone isn't willing to give you a week or two, I'd be cautious. That said, I know guys who have things like 2 hour policies and who ship amazingly healthy corals. Sellers will bend over backwards to keep repeat customers happy. Build relationships and let them know what's going on. I'm very sure most vendors appreciate the chance to replace a loss.