27c fallow

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi, I have been continuing daily observation, and I have a slight concern about the clownfish. It is similar to what is in the reply that I quoted, and I have noticed a new white spot / patch on it

It's only properly visible when I film or picture of it and harder to see with the naked eye, and also appears a tiny bit elevated from the skin from some angles

Hard to say how long this has been there, as there is still the spots that I mentioned in the quoted reply, I noticed that they have slowly changed throughout a few weeks but like you said is most likely scale damage, I just hope this is the same. I don't know if I am just looking for issues at this point but any patch of white I see always worries me, and the one today for sure caught my eye

really hope this is not ich again, just want to get my fish back in the DT. I literally only have 2 fish, and planning on adding 1 more after QT

That doesn't look like marine ich to me. Clownfish are so prone to scale damage from scrapping with one another that I don't worry about a spot here or there, as long as they don't act like ich spots. What I mean by that is with ich, the trophont stage is what causes the white spot. Trophonts are visible on a fish for up to around 3 days. If you see spots that come and go in that time frame, changing in relative number, then that is most likely ich. A spot that stays in the same location at the same size for 5+ days isn't ich. It also isn't any of the other parasitic diseases.

Jay

 

[Brad Coughlan]

Ok

That doesn't look like marine ich to me. Clownfish are so prone to scale damage from scrapping with one another that I don't worry about a spot here or there, as long as they don't act like ich spots. What I mean by that is with ich, the trophont stage is what causes the white spot. Trophonts are visible on a fish for up to around 3 days. If you see spots that come and go in that time frame, changing in relative number, then that is most likely ich. A spot that stays in the same location at the same size for 5+ days isn't ich. It also isn't any of the other parasitic diseases.

Jay

Ok good to hear

When you say they get scale damage from scraping one another, could it still be scale damage since I only have 1 clownfish and 1 firefish

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok

Ok good to hear

When you say they get scale damage from scraping one another, could it still be scale damage since I only have 1 clownfish and 1 firefish

Unlikely to be from a firefish. Sometimes, (but not often) a fish can get scraped up on a piece of rock.

Jay

 

[Brad Coughlan]

Unlikely to be from a firefish. Sometimes, (but not often) a fish can get scraped up on a piece of rock.

Jay

Oh right, since it's a QT I don't have any rock, just a terracotta pot and some sponges

 

[Brad Coughlan]

Unlikely to be from a firefish. Sometimes, (but not often) a fish can get scraped up on a piece of rock.

Jay

Hi, hopefully this is the last thing I have to say about these spots since I have found something that hopefully provides an answer

I took a picture yesterday of one and circled of it and sane today, and it looks like one of them has rotated a bit

Yesterday:

Today:

Sorry to be going on about them but hopefully this should clear things up. Is the rotation what ich does, is this ich?

Thanks

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi, hopefully this is the last thing I have to say about these spots since I have found something that hopefully provides an answer

I took a picture yesterday of one and circled of it and sane today, and it looks like one of them has rotated a bit

Yesterday:

Today:

Sorry to be going on about them but hopefully this should clear things up. Is the rotation what ich does, is this ich?

Thanks

That just doesn't look like ich to me at all. The ich spots are white, raised up and have very sharp edges, like grains of salt.

Jay

 

[Brad Coughlan]

That just doesn't look like ich to me at all. The ich spots are white, raised up and have very sharp edges, like grains of salt.

Jay

That's good

Any idea what it is since the spots have changed appearance slighly, is that whats scale damage can do

Thanks

 

[Brad Coughlan]

That just doesn't look like ich to me at all. The ich spots are white, raised up and have very sharp edges, like grains of salt.

Jay

Hi sorry that I keep going on about this

I am continuing observation and found this:

However, I only saw it like this on camera and was hard to see with the naked eye.

Also, with the camera it looks normal from a different angle:

If you know what this is / why it's there that would be great, really hope it is not ich

EDIT:
Hmmmm, this doesn't look good either:

Thanks

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi sorry that I keep going on about this

I am continuing observation and found this:

However, I only saw it like this on camera and was hard to see with the naked eye.

Also, with the camera it looks normal from a different angle:

If you know what this is / why it's there that would be great, really hope it is not ich

Thanks

Sometimes, a visual ID from a photograph is just not possible. If this is ich, it is just the very start.

What you need to do is watch the spots - ich trophonts spend about 2 to 4 days visible on the fish, then they drop off to reproduce. This makes the spots gone and go and change location every few days. There will be a general increase in their numbers. If you see that, then you would want to treat all fish in the tank with copper or hyposalinity (in the absence of any invertebrates).

If you see other symptoms, such as not eating, lethargy or rapid breathing, there could be another issue.

Jay

 

[Brad Coughlan]

Sometimes, a visual ID from a photograph is just not possible. If this is ich, it is just the very start.

What you need to do is watch the spots - ich trophonts spend about 2 to 4 days visible on the fish, then they drop off to reproduce. This makes the spots gone and go and change location every few days. There will be a general increase in their numbers. If you see that, then you would want to treat all fish in the tank with copper or hyposalinity (in the absence of any invertebrates).

If you see other symptoms, such as not eating, lethargy or rapid breathing, there could be another issue.

Jay

Ok thanks

Thing is that these pictures were just screenshotted fron a video I took, there are few points where they are actually visible and when I zoom in from most angles they blend in with the scales of the fish

Is ich usually brighter than that?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok thanks

Thing is that these pictures were just screenshotted fron a video I took, there are few points where they are actually visible and when I zoom in from most angles they blend in with the scales of the fish

Is ich usually brighter than that?

Yes, but it is complicated; as the trophont grows in size, it grows larger and brighter. Then, the fish begins to produce mucus which makes the spot more diffuse and less visible, then the door drops off.

Jay

 

[Brad Coughlan]

Yes, but it is complicated; as the trophont grows in size, it grows larger and brighter. Then, the fish begins to produce mucus which makes the spot more diffuse and less visible, then the door drops off.

Jay

Right ok

The one spot I pictured on its face has actually moved since yesterday, I looked back at a video I took yesterday, is this a sign?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Right ok

The one spot I pictured on its face has actually moved since yesterday, I looked back at a video I took yesterday, is this a sign?

Could be. If you want to be safe, you can treat the fish with coppersafe or hyposalinity (no invertebrates of course).

Personally, I would wait until there were more spots and then the ich would be more definitive.

Jay

 

[Brad Coughlan]

Could be. If you want to be safe, you can treat the fish with coppersafe or hyposalinity (no invertebrates of course).

Personally, I would wait until there were more spots and then the ich would be more definitive.

Jay

Ok thanks

 

[Brad Coughlan]

Could be. If you want to be safe, you can treat the fish with coppersafe or hyposalinity (no invertebrates of course).

Personally, I would wait until there were more spots and then the ich would be more definitive.

Jay

When you say coppersafe, there's a slight problem. I only have the ntlabs one, as cupramine, copper power etc is hard to find here


If it is ich, that means the ntlabs medication did not work and that makes me question the effectiveness of it, what is your opinion on ich managment in a 20gallon? If it is ich, I will see how bad it is and consider moving them back to the DT for managment (that's dependent on what your opinion is on it as I know it's mixed with lots of people) if I did, should I finish the fallow period or just go ahead before that?

Also the spot by the mouth is still there, so it's been 2 days, if it's there for longer than 4 days (monday) should I just not worry?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

When you say coppersafe, there's a slight problem. I only have the ntlabs one, as cupramine, copper power etc is hard to find here


If it is ich, that means the ntlabs medication did not work and that makes me question the effectiveness of it, what is your opinion on ich managment in a 20gallon? If it is ich, I will see how bad it is and consider moving them back to the DT for managment (that's dependent on what your opinion is on it as I know it's mixed with lots of people) if I did, should I finish the fallow period or just go ahead before that?

Also the spot by the mouth is still there, so it's been 2 days, if it's there for longer than 4 days (monday) should I just not worry?

If this is ich, it is so mild that ich management could work.

Hyposalinity is a good alternative to coppersafe for all fish except sharks and rays.

Jay

 

[Brad Coughlan]

If this is ich, it is so mild that ich management could work.

Hyposalinity is a good alternative to coppersafe for all fish except sharks and rays.

Jay

Alright, I will wait until it's been over 4 days and if it's still there I will be sure it's not ich

If it disappears before 4 days I will evaluate my options for treatment or going into managment

If I chose managment, do I need to complete the fallow period in the DT to have the population of parasites in it at 0 to have the DT start from a clean slate, or should I just put the fish back in now with 40 days of fallow remaining?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Alright, I will wait until it's been over 4 days and if it's still there I will be sure it's not ich

If it disappears before 4 days I will evaluate my options for treatment or going into managment

If I chose managment, do I need to complete the fallow period in the DT to have the population of parasites in it at 0 to have the DT start from a clean slate, or should I just put the fish back in now with 40 days of fallow remaining?

Not sure I understand - true "ich management" is done in the DT itself, with invertebrates in place, so there is no fallow period. Basically, the process is that the ich parasite is managed at sub-clinical levels. Here is a write-up I did on that topic:


Starting Ich Management during an active infection only works if the number of trophonts on the fish is below a certain number. Above that number and the trophonts themselves become stressors and the parasite gains a foothold, despite your attempts to manage it. So what is that number? It depends on too many variables - but I start to expect Ich Management to fail if the number of spots on any one fish is above 30 or so.

Here is my protocol for ich management. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and choose which items you want to follow - you need to go with all guns blazing and use them all.

“Ich Management” Because many aquarists mix fish and invertebrates, they are ill-prepared to then treat for marine ich, as the two best treatments, amine-based copper or hyposalinity, cannot be used with invertebrates. A popular technique has then arisen, “ich management”. It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative. Be forewarned, it often fails if applied during moderate infections. The reason that it exists as a technique at all is because people find themselves in situations like this and are desperate to try anything.

The basic idea is to reduce the infective propagules (tomites) of the ich parasite to the point where the fish's acquired immunity can fight the infection off. This is done through a series of techniques for stress reduction and tomite limiting. Unfortunately, the ich tomites themselves cause stress to the fish, so if the fish have more than 30 or so trophonts on them, the method often fails.

1) Install a powerful UV sterilizer on the aquarium.
2) Ensure that the fish's diet and water quality are the best you can make them.
3) Keep the water temperature close to 78 degrees F.
4) Siphon off the tank floor nightly to remove as many tomonts as possible.
5) Employ strong filtration to trap as many tomites as possible.
6) Try a proprietary "reef safe" marine ich medication. These rarely cure ich infections on their own, but some may have benefit when combined with other management methods. Avoid the herbal remedies, focus on those that contain peroxide salts. There is, however, some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.

Jay

 

[Brad Coughlan]

Not sure I understand - true "ich management" is done in the DT itself, with invertebrates in place, so there is no fallow period. Basically, the process is that the ich parasite is managed at sub-clinical levels. Here is a write-up I did on that topic:


Starting Ich Management during an active infection only works if the number of trophonts on the fish is below a certain number. Above that number and the trophonts themselves become stressors and the parasite gains a foothold, despite your attempts to manage it. So what is that number? It depends on too many variables - but I start to expect Ich Management to fail if the number of spots on any one fish is above 30 or so.

Here is my protocol for ich management. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and choose which items you want to follow - you need to go with all guns blazing and use them all.

“Ich Management” Because many aquarists mix fish and invertebrates, they are ill-prepared to then treat for marine ich, as the two best treatments, amine-based copper or hyposalinity, cannot be used with invertebrates. A popular technique has then arisen, “ich management”. It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative. Be forewarned, it often fails if applied during moderate infections. The reason that it exists as a technique at all is because people find themselves in situations like this and are desperate to try anything.

The basic idea is to reduce the infective propagules (tomites) of the ich parasite to the point where the fish's acquired immunity can fight the infection off. This is done through a series of techniques for stress reduction and tomite limiting. Unfortunately, the ich tomites themselves cause stress to the fish, so if the fish have more than 30 or so trophonts on them, the method often fails.

1) Install a powerful UV sterilizer on the aquarium.
2) Ensure that the fish's diet and water quality are the best you can make them.
3) Keep the water temperature close to 78 degrees F.
4) Siphon off the tank floor nightly to remove as many tomonts as possible.
5) Employ strong filtration to trap as many tomites as possible.
6) Try a proprietary "reef safe" marine ich medication. These rarely cure ich infections on their own, but some may have benefit when combined with other management methods. Avoid the herbal remedies, focus on those that contain peroxide salts. There is, however, some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.

Jay

Thanks,

What I meant is that the DT is already infected with ich and is still fallow. What I was asking is that if I chose ich management, should I wait until the 76 day fallow period is complete so there are 0 parasites in it so I could put the infected fish into a tank with 0 parasites. Or do I just put the infected fish into an infected tank?

I understand that if I put infected fish into a non infected tank then the tank would become infected, but would it help just to into an ich-less tank

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks,

What I meant is that the DT is already infected with ich and is still fallow. What I was asking is that if I chose ich management, should I wait until the 76 day fallow period is complete so there are 0 parasites in it so I could put the infected fish into a tank with 0 parasites. Or do I just put the infected fish into an infected tank?

I understand that if I put infected fish into a non infected tank then the tank would become infected, but would it help just to into an ich-less tank

I see - no, if the DT has active ich in it, and you are trying to "manage" ich in another tank, moving those fish back to the DT too soon has some risk to it. Ich management relies in part on managing fish stress. Moving fish is stressful, therefore ich may crop right back up on them if you cut the fallow period shorter than perhaps 45 days.

Jay