3 New Fish With Spinal Injuries?

[Wandering Albatross]

Good morning all, I recently received 2 fish orders from the same vendor. Most of the fish in both were okay, but 1 from the first order and 2 from the second order have very concerning behavior. One is a very young ruby finned fairy wrasse (1"), the other 2 are orchid dottybacks (1.5-2"). All 3 when acclimating swam erratically, sideways in a circle with their heads pointed up. When added to the tank, they could not fight even the slightest flow and were blown around into powerheads. I was forced to catch all 3 and hold them in my acclimation box. They were so listless and struggled so hard to stay afloat at all, they were swept right into the net.

Now in the box the wrasse looks slightly better, but her tail still hangs down like her back is hunched, and she still seems to have trouble controlling her movement. She's not swollen or abnormal looking, breathing normal, but now she just floats aimlessly around the top of the box. Up against the top all day, though when I first got her in the box, she sat on the bottom. 3 other wrasse, another fairy and 2 canarytops all came from the same vendor, same order, and they are all fine.

Now in the box both dottybacks don't even try to swim. They aren't breathing fast or hard, if anything it seems really slow. They're both laying on the bottom, pretty much listless. The larger one has tried to move once or twice, it's a shaking, darting motion that leads nowhere, then he just sinks again and resumes laying there. His back looks a little kinked downward.

I've seen this behavior in disbar anthias with suspected spinal injuries. My best guess is the same for these guys. Nobody is bloated or showing any obvious signs of illness, closest being the kinked look. Is there anything besides what I've done that might help if it's an injury? I can't release them in the tank, they aren't strong enough right now. Any other ideas as to what it might be other than injury?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Good morning all, I recently received 2 fish orders from the same vendor. Most of the fish in both were okay, but 1 from the first order and 2 from the second order have very concerning behavior. One is a very young ruby finned fairy wrasse (1"), the other 2 are orchid dottybacks (1.5-2"). All 3 when acclimating swam erratically, sideways in a circle with their heads pointed up. When added to the tank, they could not fight even the slightest flow and were blown around into powerheads. I was forced to catch all 3 and hold them in my acclimation box. They were so listless and struggled so hard to stay afloat at all, they were swept right into the net.

Now in the box the wrasse looks slightly better, but her tail still hangs down like her back is hunched, and she still seems to have trouble controlling her movement. She's not swollen or abnormal looking, breathing normal, but now she just floats aimlessly around the top of the box. Up against the top all day, though when I first got her in the box, she sat on the bottom. 3 other wrasse, another fairy and 2 canarytops all came from the same vendor, same order, and they are all fine.

Now in the box both dottybacks don't even try to swim. They aren't breathing fast or hard, if anything it seems really slow. They're both laying on the bottom, pretty much listless. The larger one has tried to move once or twice, it's a shaking, darting motion that leads nowhere, then he just sinks again and resumes laying there. His back looks a little kinked downward.

I've seen this behavior in disbar anthias with suspected spinal injuries. My best guess is the same for these guys. Nobody is bloated or showing any obvious signs of illness, closest being the kinked look. Is there anything besides what I've done that might help if it's an injury? I can't release them in the tank, they aren't strong enough right now. Any other ideas as to what it might be other than injury?

Please post pics/video of fish in question
May w neurological which affects many wrasses known as UNWD

 

[Wandering Albatross]

She almost floats at the top like she isn’t controlling it, just drifting. Her pectoral find move some but her tail seems stiff. She does look a little better than she did though. Her sister came in bright eyed, eating during acclimation, super strong and active, and I have to assume they came from the same holding tank.

He just sits there, can’t get a good angle on the other one. She’s tucked up under the hide I have in there.

Please excuse the acclimation box wall being a little blurry, I try not to scrape it with stressed fish inside.

Here’s her sister for swimming orientation reference.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Good morning all, I recently received 2 fish orders from the same vendor. Most of the fish in both were okay, but 1 from the first order and 2 from the second order have very concerning behavior. One is a very young ruby finned fairy wrasse (1"), the other 2 are orchid dottybacks (1.5-2"). All 3 when acclimating swam erratically, sideways in a circle with their heads pointed up. When added to the tank, they could not fight even the slightest flow and were blown around into powerheads. I was forced to catch all 3 and hold them in my acclimation box. They were so listless and struggled so hard to stay afloat at all, they were swept right into the net.

Now in the box the wrasse looks slightly better, but her tail still hangs down like her back is hunched, and she still seems to have trouble controlling her movement. She's not swollen or abnormal looking, breathing normal, but now she just floats aimlessly around the top of the box. Up against the top all day, though when I first got her in the box, she sat on the bottom. 3 other wrasse, another fairy and 2 canarytops all came from the same vendor, same order, and they are all fine.

Now in the box both dottybacks don't even try to swim. They aren't breathing fast or hard, if anything it seems really slow. They're both laying on the bottom, pretty much listless. The larger one has tried to move once or twice, it's a shaking, darting motion that leads nowhere, then he just sinks again and resumes laying there. His back looks a little kinked downward.

I've seen this behavior in disbar anthias with suspected spinal injuries. My best guess is the same for these guys. Nobody is bloated or showing any obvious signs of illness, closest being the kinked look. Is there anything besides what I've done that might help if it's an injury? I can't release them in the tank, they aren't strong enough right now. Any other ideas as to what it might be other than injury?

Do you know the salinity that the fish were shipped in versus your tank?

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Do you know the salinity that the fish were shipped in versus your tank?

I don't know if they were shipped lower than they were kept, but the bag water ran 1.020ish, my tank is at 1.025. They were acclimated the same pace every other fish I get is, and the rest of the fish in the same order, at the same 1.020 starting point, are active and doing great. No abnormal behavior, no gasping, no struggling to swim, just good colors and eating well.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I don't know if they were shipped lower than they were kept, but the bag water ran 1.020ish, my tank is at 1.025. They were acclimated the same pace every other fish I get is, and the rest of the fish in the same order, at the same 1.020 starting point, are active and doing great. No abnormal behavior, no gasping, no struggling to swim, just good colors and eating well.

Fish vary in their ability to overcome changes in salinity. A specific gravity change of 1.020 to 1.025 is of a level that you will begin to see issues. There could also have been an ammonia issue during the acclimation process. I'm leaning in this direction because the symptoms began immediately upon arrival. Spinal injuries in fish that are shipped in plastic bags must be very rare, I've never seen that happen.

There is a known issue with some wrasses though:

Unknown Neurological Wrasse Disease (UNWD)

Unknown Neurological Wrasse disease (UNWD) There is a disease that afflicts newly acquired wrasses, usually Cirrhilabrus fairy wrasses or flasher wrasses, Pseudocheilinus, but occasionally other species as well. The gross visual symptoms are always the same; the fish shows a rapid onset of...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Fish vary in their ability to overcome changes in salinity. A specific gravity change of 1.020 to 1.025 is of a level that you will begin to see issues. There could also have been an ammonia issue during the acclimation process. I'm leaning in this direction because the symptoms began immediately upon arrival. Spinal injuries in fish that are shipped in plastic bags must be very rare, I've never seen that happen.

There is a known issue with some wrasses though:

Unknown Neurological Wrasse Disease (UNWD)

Unknown Neurological Wrasse disease (UNWD) There is a disease that afflicts newly acquired wrasses, usually Cirrhilabrus fairy wrasses or flasher wrasses, Pseudocheilinus, but occasionally other species as well. The gross visual symptoms are always the same; the fish shows a rapid onset of...

www.reef2reef.com

If it's an injury it could be from handling prior to shipment I suppose, it just looked more like an injury of some kind, at least on the larger dottyback. Since starting this thread I've watched him attempt to swim, but he just wiggles and shutters along the floor of the box, belly and head on the floor and his tail slightly raised. He does seem to be moving his pectoral fins slowly. Still won't eat. The other hasn't moved from her spot since putting her in the box this morning, I check every so often and she's still breathing but barely. She's on her side.

The wrasse is still glued to the top of the box with her tail hanging like she's inflated, but there's no swelling anywhere. I worry if I let her out she won't be able to control her buoyancy. I was really hoping some time and food would help straighten this out, but I'm seriously thinking that all 3 will end up as a loss.

 

[MnFish1]

It would be nearly impossible for an 'injury' simultaneously appear. I vote Salinity issue with Jay. The wrasse disease is also an uncommon (since its 3 fish at once) reason

 

[Wandering Albatross]

It would be nearly impossible for an 'injury' simultaneously appear. I vote Salinity issue with Jay. The wrasse disease is also an uncommon (since its 3 fish at once) reason

I thought injury because I've seen this before in established fish that were being harassed, and 2 of the 3 fish in question seemed off before acclimation even started.

I find it interesting if that's the running theory that several fish at the same salinity could have that drastic of a reaction to the same environment, but that's nature for you I suppose. Question now is, is there any chance they'll recover with more time? Will the kink/arched back and apparent buoyancy issues resolve, or will they be like this for a short while longer then die? For that drastic of a reaction only from certain fish, it makes me reflexively think there's a problem with the individual, not the method of acclimation. Any chance getting cold for too long could have contributed to this as well?

 

[Tcook]

When you say you acclimated them, over what period of time? My lfs receives fish at 1.018 and he will acclimate them over several days for me to 1.026

Also as Jay mentioned the ammonia issue. Were these shipped in O2 and then drip acclimated over a long period of time?

 

[Wandering Albatross]

When you say you acclimated them, over what period of time? My lfs receives fish at 1.018 and he will acclimate them over several days for me to 1.026

Between 15 minutes and an hour, depending on how they came in. Most often they come it at 1.023 so it's not long. I've had some inverts shipped at 1.033 before, they go longer. These guys did come in a little low, but everyone in both shipments was acclimated for the same amount of time, same way, and everyone else was very active, the other fairy wrasse even ate while acclimating. She surprised me, IME they don't normally take anything in such a new environment, but she inhaled at least 5 pellets that I could see.

 

[Tcook]

That’s too fast for a 5 point difference imo. I “acclimate” differently for shipped fish to avoid drips and ammonia. I ask the shipper what SG the fish are shipped at and set my QT tank to that. Also have saturated salt water and ro to adjust on the spot if they arrive at different SG. Then you just float to temp acclimate and then drop them straight in.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

That’s too fast for a 5 point difference imo. I “acclimate” differently for shipped fish to avoid drips and ammonia. I ask the shipper what SG the fish are shipped at and set my QT tank to that. Also have saturated salt water and ro to adjust on the spot if they arrive at different SG. Then you just float to temp acclimate and then drop them straight in.

I don't use drips, and I don't run a quarantine tank. I'm hoping that information doesn't spark the quarantine police and a whole debate on that. Because I don't run quarantine, I do acclimate faster to minimize ammonia spikes, turning over the fouled water for tank water as quickly as possible.

I can agree it's not perfect, but it has worked well for me, and the fish are generally out and about within 48 hours, unless it's a particularly timid species. Like the garden eels, the one took a week to poke out of his burrow to eat. The purple firefish in the new system took 3 days, and one still only comes out long enough to grab a bite. Every fish I've lost within the first 48 hours was lethargic, disturbingly thin, or displayed abnormal behavior in their bag before it was even opened, usually sideways swimming or lying flat on its side unresponsive.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Between 15 minutes and an hour, depending on how they came in. Most often they come it at 1.023 so it's not long. I've had some inverts shipped at 1.033 before, they go longer. These guys did come in a little low, but everyone in both shipments was acclimated for the same amount of time, same way, and everyone else was very active, the other fairy wrasse even ate while acclimating. She surprised me, IME they don't normally take anything in such a new environment, but she inhaled at least 5 pellets that I could see.

Fish handle drops in salinity much, much better than they do a rise.

For future reference, here is an article i wrote on acclimation mehtods:

Acclimation Methods

Acclimating Animals to Aquariums Jay F. Hemdal c.2020 Introduction to acclimation techniques Most beginning aquarists hear that they must “acclimate” any new animals they add to their aquarium. Acclimation (sometimes termed...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Update:

The fairy tried but just couldn’t make it, and the smaller dottyback is gone as well. The remaining dottyback still can’t swim, he wiggles on the floor. But he is moving around some, at least trying. He’s wiggled across roughly 4’ of distance since yesterday. His back is still kinked though. It might be permenant, he might be at deaths door, or he might heal. No idea at this point. He seems to try to eat too. We’ll see. He has access to live baby brine if he wants it.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Part of me wants to hope the dotty will recover, that he isn't truly kinked and just needs time. He is trying to hide now which ironically is better than before where he just laid there, unwilling or unable to run from me or the net.

 

[Tahoe61]

I find it interesting if that's the running theory that several fish at the same salinity could have that drastic of a reaction to the same environment, but that's nature for you I suppose.

But that is the logical conclusion.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

But that is the logical conclusion.

Not arguing, simply curious as to how nature designed that. I've never had a fish have these problems during or immediately following acclimation before. And for what it's worth, the 3 fish in question seemed 'off' before I even opened their bags, but at the time I chalked it up to moving stress.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Update:

The remaining dottyback is still alive. He still wiggles and sits on the sand, but is more interactive and has at least once gotten about an inch off the sand for 10 seconds or so. His breathing is a little heavy but it seems to be from the strain of trying to move.