40G First Time Cycling

[JFinlay]

Hello! My first post on the forum, I've read countless threads, watched days worth of Youtube (BRS mainly) and still don't feel like there is a clear path to success when starting. It seems a lot of videos/threads will contradict themselves based on how old they are.

I'm just looking for a clear plan of attack for starting my 40 gallon tank sitting next to me, I honestly care more about a successful ecosystem rather than just looks, lots of random questions.

My LFS offers live rock, however I want to glue it so it doesn't fall over, if I let it sit out for awhile to cure will that defeat the purpose of live rock? Also will be using live sand.

I plan on using Microbacter7 because that is also what my LFS offers, I'm trying to become loyal to them instead of purchasing everything online, hope it isn't too much different than Dr. Tims. What should be my first thing to do after I'm done cycling, hoping that only takes 2 weeks or so, I assume add fish (2 Clownfish), then CUC, then after 4 weeks or so add coral? (Easy ones like Xenia, Zoa, etc) I'm just REALLY trying to avoid takeover of any sort of algae, are copepods still recommended? Should I add those as soon as cycling is done as well? Is it worth mixing live rock and dry rock?

My last question is I basically want every fish to serve a purpose, for livestock I'm thinking something like this.
Pink streak Wrasse
Clowns
Lawnmower blenny
Lubbock Fairy Wrasse
Royal Gramma
Some type of Goby, thinking YWG and Pistol shrimp but have heard bad things about Pistols as well so not sure.
Feel like my tank should have more room than for what I can think of? Do I make everyone upset and say a Tang too? JK

when do you think I should start adding them? My build is definitely considered a "budget build", therefore I won't be quarantining but trusting my LFS. No room for a QT tank.


Hopefully this gets some responses, thank you if so.

 

[JFinlay]

Or do I add coral first and then CUC? I plan to cycle without lights on as well. Man the debate will rage on in my head forever, as I type this at 2AM.

 

[JFinlay]

Bump, posted this at 2AM don’t want it to get lost.

 

[mjw011689]

If the LFS is selling actual live rock (rock that has been in a running system building a bacteria base), then yes, removing it from water will absolutely be counter productive. It will kill off that bacteria base if it’s out of water too long, this will also cause die-off of whatever life may be on that rock, beneficial or otherwise.

for microbacter7, I’ve never used it to cycle a tank, but I can tell you it does help if there is a spike in ammonia or nitrites, which is what you’re looking for in a cycle. You will need to have a spike in ammonia to start your cycle though, whether that’s from dosing ammonia or throwing in a frozen shrimp or 2. Simply adding microbacter will do nothing if there is no ammonia source for the bacteria.

Cycle time is different on every single tank. I just started a new tank using dr Tim’s ammonia and fritz turbostart for the bacteria. A lot of people I’ve spoken with have used this method and it works all within days. We shall see. I’ve previously used the dr tims method and that took several weeks. Like a month. Other times when I’ve used real live rock from an established tank, I never even saw any cycle.

As for the fish list, that might be on the heavy side for a 40 long term. Royals can get a bit mean and good size. Just something to keep in mind down the road.

 

[RocketEngineer]

What is their definition of “live rock” and “live sand”? Because I bet it’s not the really good stuff. IMO, if you’re going to glue rock together, you’re better off ordering dry, building the aquascape, then getting it wet and seeding it with actual LR and LS. There’s no reason to spend the money on something that won’t survive.

Once the rock is seeded, you want to wait a bit before adding the CUC as they will need something to eat. A pair of starter clowns will get you going and provide the start of your collection. It will take quite some time before the tank can really support corals.

 

[JFinlay]

If the Lea is selling actual live rock (rock that has been in a running system building a bacteria base), then yes, removing it from water will absolutely be counter productive. It will kill off that bacteria base if it’s out of water too long, this will also cause die-off of whatever life may be on that rock, beneficial or otherwise.

for microbacter7, I’ve never used it to cycle a tank, but I can tell you it does help if there is a spike in ammonia or nitrites, which is what you’re looking for in a cycle. You will need to have a spike in ammonia to start your cycle though, whether that’s from dosing ammonia or throwing in a frozen shrimp or 2. Simply adding microbacter will do nothing if there is no ammonia source for the bacteria.

Cycle time is different on every single tank. I just started a new tank using dr Tim’s ammonia and fritz turbostart for the bacteria. A lot of people I’ve spoken with have used this method and it works all within days. We shall see. I’ve previously used the dr tims method and that took several weeks. Like a month. Other times when I’ve used real live rock from an established tank, I never even saw any cycle.

As for the fish list, that might be on the heavy side for a 40 long term. Royals can get a bit mean and good size. Just something to keep in mind down the road.

Yes I’m lucky enough to have a well established salt water store 5 mins from my home, they’ve been around 30 years and have live rock in a giant tank. So what do you suggest I do for live rock then? Just going to have to stack it as best as possible I assume? The only bad side of my LFS is he is still on the “old ways” of doing things. Thinks dr Tim’s/microbacter7 is BS basically so he has no opinion to offer me. I was aware of using ammonia to cycle, but it was one of those things I wasn’t sure if people still did.
As for fish, that’s good to know. I’ll add them very slowly, and maybe will just scratch a royal gramma then, what do you suggest I replace with?

 

[JFinlay]

What is their definition of “live rock” and “live sand”? Because I bet it’s not the really good stuff. IMO, if you’re going to glue rock together, you’re better off ordering dry, building the aquascape, then getting it wet and seeding it with actual LR and LS. There’s no reason to spend the money on something that won’t survive.

Once the rock is seeded, you want to wait a bit before adding the CUC as they will need something to eat. A pair of starter clowns will get you going and provide the start of your collection. It will take quite some time before the tank can really support corals.

They have a lot of what they call live rock in a tank, they’ve been around a long time. $9 a pound. Only bad thing is they all seem like smaller rocks, no giant boulder, so that’s why I was thinking of mixing it with dry rock if anything.

 

[JFinlay]

LR / LS is are terms I haven’t seen before, what do those mean?

 

[JFinlay]

What is their definition of “live rock” and “live sand”? Because I bet it’s not the really good stuff. IMO, if you’re going to glue rock together, you’re better off ordering dry, building the aquascape, then getting it wet and seeding it with actual LR and LS. There’s no reason to spend the money on something that won’t survive.

Once the rock is seeded, you want to wait a bit before adding the CUC as they will need something to eat. A pair of starter clowns will get you going and provide the start of your collection. It will take quite some time before the tank can really support corals.

Also by live sand I just mean the Caribsea live sand in a bag that a lot of people use.

 

[mjw011689]

LR / LS is are terms I haven’t seen before, what do those mean?

Live rock, live sand

 

[JFinlay]

Live rock, live sand

Oh ok, yea I’m thinking that’s my plan. I will aquascape with dry rock, glue together and let cure, and then will scatter some LR around my tank once I begin cycling.

 

[mjw011689]

Yes I’m lucky enough to have a well established salt water store 5 mins from my home, they’ve been around 30 years and have live rock in a giant tank. So what do you suggest I do for live rock then? Just going to have to stack it as best as possible I assume? The only bad side of my LFS is he is still on the “old ways” of doing things. Thinks dr Tim’s/microbacter7 is BS basically so he has no opinion to offer me. I was aware of using ammonia to cycle, but it was one of those things I wasn’t sure if people still did.
As for fish, that’s good to know. I’ll add them very slowly, and maybe will just scratch a royal gramma then, what do you suggest I replace with?

Considering the sheer numbers of people that do fishless cycling in 2 weeks or less using these products, I can tell you they are not bs. Again, haven’t used Brightwell, but I’ve used Tim’s and it worked, although took much longer.
For what it’s worth, I see a ton of LFS calling straight up dry rock “live rock”. I take that term with a grain of salt these days. What you need to know is if the rock is cycled. True cured live rock has been cycled (saw a spike in ammonia, bacteria developed and took down ammonia and nitrite). Just being wet doesn’t guarantee a thing, although it more than likely is live if they’ve got it in an aged system that has a bio load on it.

for gluing rocks, there is reef putty that works well(ish) to secure stuff. To be used underwater

 

[ReefGeezer]

Yes I’m lucky enough to have a well established salt water store 5 mins from my home, they’ve been around 30 years and have live rock in a giant tank. So what do you suggest I do for live rock then? Just going to have to stack it as best as possible I assume? The only bad side of my LFS is he is still on the “old ways” of doing things. Thinks dr Tim’s/microbacter7 is BS basically so he has no opinion to offer me. I was aware of using ammonia to cycle, but it was one of those things I wasn’t sure if people still did.
As for fish, that’s good to know. I’ll add them very slowly, and maybe will just scratch a royal gramma then, what do you suggest I replace with?

So, "Cycle" simply means establishing bacteria the converts ammonia to nitrate and further to nitrogen gas. Provided an ammonia source, nature will provide those bacteria and establish a cycle. This takes 6-8 weeks. All the other stuff you see is just a way to speed the process. They all work.

Dr. Tim's makes several products made to help establish a cycle. The first in a product to supply ammonia. Others are a bacteria starter. When you say Dr. Tim's and MB7, I get a little concerned. The bacteria in MB7 is not the bacteria needed for the nitrogen cycle. The Dr. Tim's bacteria product, Fritz Turbostart, or other products would be better.

As far as live rock, if your LFS has real ocean cultured live rock, that would be the way to go. BUT... if it is just rock that is soaking in a tank to establish a bacteria population, it is not worth $9 an lb. From the ocean, it should have pink/purple coralline algae, some sponges, possibly some imbedded bivalves, and maybe some plant looking stuff on it. If it is just dull white or grey rock, I'd pass on it. If the live sand is in a bag on a shelf, it is not live sand.

You can buy live base rock directly from the ocean for $9 a lb plus shipping. Yep, a little more expensive but worth it. Live sand is available also from the same suppliers. This is the way I would start the tank. No ammonia or bacteria starters are required when using this method. You can glue together live rock with two part epoxy putty and super glue. You can't build the crazy aquascape you see with dry rock, but you can make it stable.

 

[JFinlay]

So, "Cycle" simply means establishing bacteria the converts ammonia to nitrate and further to nitrogen gas. Provided an ammonia source, nature will provide those bacteria and establish a cycle. This takes 6-8 weeks. All the other stuff you see is just a way to speed the process. They all work.

Dr. Tim's makes several products made to help establish a cycle. The first in a product to supply ammonia. Others are a bacteria starter. When you say Dr. Tim's and MB7, I get a little concerned. The bacteria in MB7 is not the bacteria needed for the nitrogen cycle. The Dr. Tim's bacteria product, Fritz Turbostart, or other products would be better.

As far as live rock, if your LFS has real ocean cultured live rock, that would be the way to go. BUT... if it is just rock that is soaking in a tank to establish a bacteria population, it is not worth $9 an lb. From the ocean, it should have pink/purple coralline algae, some sponges, possibly some imbedded bivalves, and maybe some plant looking stuff on it. If it is just dull white or grey rock, I'd pass on it. If the live sand is in a bag on a shelf, it is not live sand.

You can buy live base rock directly from the ocean for $9 a lb plus shipping. Yep, a little more expensive but worth it. Live sand is available also from the same suppliers. This is the way I would start the tank. No ammonia or bacteria starters are required when using this method. You can glue together live rock with two part epoxy putty and super glue. You can't build the crazy aquascape you see with dry rock, but you can make it stable.

Ok thank you for clarifying, so MB7 shouldn’t be looked at as a cycle accelerator like Dr. Tim’s? I was unaware. It does seem to be actual LR at the LFS, it is purple with all sorts of stuff on it. He just isn’t knowledgeable when it comes to the new ways of cycling with those products, that’s why I’m here. A lot of my LFS methods and opinions seem to be outdated.

So from what I’ve gathered, you think I can completely cycle with just LR? Should I still keep ammonia/Dr Tims handy just in case?

Basically my goal is to cycle as quickly and problem free as possible.

 

[Soren]

Ok thank you for clarifying, so MB7 shouldn’t be looked at as a cycle accelerator like Dr. Tim’s? I was unaware. It does seem to be actual LR at the LFS, it is purple with all sorts of stuff on it. He just isn’t knowledgeable when it comes to the new ways of cycling with those products, that’s why I’m here. A lot of my LFS methods and opinions seem to be outdated.

So from what I’ve gathered, you think I can completely cycle with just LR? Should I still keep ammonia/Dr Tims handy just in case?

Basically my goal is to cycle as quickly and problem free as possible.

If the LFS live rock is purple with coralline algae and all sorts of stuff on it, it is most likely real live rock and should be more than enough to not need an additional cycle method for a small tank. This is the second best method for starting a tank, in my opinion. (First best is ocean-direct live rock cultured for over a year)

Be aware that there are some vendors with dry "life rock" that is colored purple and is supposed to be coated in dormant bacteria cultures, but I don't know how effective this really is and would personally treat it the same as white dry rock. It might be worth checking your LFS's live rock for coralline algae rather than purple colorants. If it has significant coralline algae and other growth, $9 per pound is pretty reasonable.

If you buy live rock from your LFS, adding bacteria such as Dr. Tim's is likely unnecessary/just a waste but likely will not cause problems. Ammonia should not be added directly, such as in Dr. Tim's method, if there are any significant life forms on the live rock, as the ammonia can burn the life forms if added in such high concentrations.

The primary reason that there is so much information about cycling that is conflicting is that there are several methods that all work by different means that cannot be randomly combined. Make sure you direct your research around a specific method of cycling in order to have the best information and direction for your methods. It seems right now that you may be going the real live rock route, which narrows down the best advice quite a bit.

 

[brclark82]

Like you have mentioned there are many opinions on this and I will give you mine.

Unless it is real live rock with actual life on it then it isn't worth paying $9/pound for rock that just has bacteria. Just get dry rock and seed it with some bottled bacteria.

I would highly recommend Fritz TurboStart 900 over everything else. Dr Tim's will work but much slower and the MB7 isn't really to help establish a new cycle. You'll be ready to add fish in 48 hours with Fritz.

Use bottled ammonia like Fritz Fishless cycle as opposed to a frozen shrimp or other ammonia source. Again, it just takes longer and is harder to control the level of ammonia.

I also like to support my LFS, the owner is amazing and it's nice to have somewhere local even if I just want to look. But, if they don't carry what I need I don't change my plan, I just buy what I can from him.

New tank cycling science has changed a lot in the last 5 years or so and many people haven't paid attention and still do it the old way that takes weeks instead of days so it isn't surprising that your LFS is givng you this advice.

Most of the advice you are getting will work one way or another, some may just take longer and have a different cost associated.

 

[RocketEngineer]

Dry “purple” rock, broken up and built.

 

[RocketEngineer]

Okay, soap box time:

Cycling never stops. As long as there is life in the tank, the bacteria will continue absorbing compounds and excreting others. The same goes with fish, corals, critters big and small. What most people call “The Cycle” is only the very beginning of a living, ongoing process. Once it’s been established “enough” then it can support the excretions of higher volume, say those of a fish, then it rebalances to that. The ugly phase of a tank occurs because all these organisms haven’t established the balance point yet and so you get boom and bust as one population takes advantage of the situation before being checked by something else.

This is not something to fight, it’s going to happen. Just watch your levels and do water changes as needed.

Soap box over.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Ok thank you for clarifying, so MB7 shouldn’t be looked at as a cycle accelerator like Dr. Tim’s? I was unaware. It does seem to be actual LR at the LFS, it is purple with all sorts of stuff on it. He just isn’t knowledgeable when it comes to the new ways of cycling with those products, that’s why I’m here. A lot of my LFS methods and opinions seem to be outdated.

So from what I’ve gathered, you think I can completely cycle with just LR? Should I still keep ammonia/Dr Tims handy just in case?

Basically my goal is to cycle as quickly and problem free as possible.

I think that done correctly, the live rock will immediately provide the capability to manage ammonia. There will never be a "cycle". You might see a slight spike of ammonia as a little of the life dies off from transport, but it will be small and go away quickly.

As far as the live rock in the LFS tank, it sounds like it may be ok. Ask questions like, where did it come from. They should know if it is from the Gulf of Mexico or somewhere else. As how long they have had it in the tank. Check to see that the water it is in is low in phosphate (<.1 ppm). Look to see if there are fish in the tank. That increases the chances of bring disease to your tank. Like @Soren said above, make sure it isn't just cycled dry rock or "LifeRock".

If you use real live rock, you won't need to add any products to increase ammonia of add a bacteria booster if using real live rock. Also, do not use products like "Prime".

Don't be fooled... there is no "New Cycle Science" although there is a lot of BS circulating regarding the subject.. In my opinion, buying live rock and live sand from a ocean direct supplier and having it shipped in water, is the best way to establish a tank. The second best way is buying true live rock from your LFS. The third best is cycling fishless with ammonia from the hardware store and Fritz Turbostart 900, and finally, the slowest way, is adding an ammonia source (from the hardware store of using raw shrimp) and simply waiting for nature to take its course.

Check out the article linked in my signature. It might help.

 

[JFinlay]

Like you have mentioned there are many opinions on this and I will give you mine.

Unless it is real live rock with actual life on it then it isn't worth paying $9/pound for rock that just has bacteria. Just get dry rock and seed it with some bottled bacteria.

I would highly recommend Fritz TurboStart 900 over everything else. Dr Tim's will work but much slower and the MB7 isn't really to help establish a new cycle. You'll be ready to add fish in 48 hours with Fritz.

Use bottled ammonia like Fritz Fishless cycle as opposed to a frozen shrimp or other ammonia source. Again, it just takes longer and is harder to control the level of ammonia.

I also like to support my LFS, the owner is amazing and it's nice to have somewhere local even if I just want to look. But, if they don't carry what I need I don't change my plan, I just buy what I can from him.

New tank cycling science has changed a lot in the last 5 years or so and many people haven't paid attention and still do it the old way that takes weeks instead of days so it isn't surprising that your LFS is givng you this advice.

Most of the advice you are getting will work one way or another, some may just take longer and have a different cost associated.

Thank you and the others for clarification. So If I am using primarily LR (may use a little dry rock to complete aquascape) should I still “dark cure” as BRS says, for 4 weeks? As in not turn on any lights.