45 Day Fallow periods

capt.dave

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I agree, new testing is needed and true peer reviewed studies need to be produced. Trouble is, there is no money in it, and everything runs on grants now. You may or may not know, but there is no real R&D in aquarium companies - at most it is a single person with some chemistry background, and at worst, the company just repackages old ideas.

Jay
Sounds like a problem that needs a grass roots foundation. BRS investigates is great but they are a (very caring) company and should be expected to investigate things they sell. That's their job. There is certainly little money in fish disease outside commercial aquaculture but how many hobbyists are there who have problems and could use some real science backed info? How many companies might benefit from it if all they can afford on their own is a single chemist? @Jay Hemdal , @Randy Holmes-Farley , @Humblefish and many others with lots of R2R badges do us a great service here and are legit heroes of the hobby but I think all of us would benefit immensely with some funded, peer reviewed scientific studies.

If I were nearing retirement, a Reef Aquarium Research Foundation might be a pretty cool way to spend the next phase of life. Hobbyists like us might donate a little. Companies and industry groups might donate a lot. Imagine what could be accomplished with a growing foundation if a real peer reviewed study of Ich could be done for less than $10k. I imagine the politics behind it would be painful but some people thrive on that.

Anyone?
 
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Fritz

josephxsxn

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If I were nearing retirement, a Reef Aquarium Research Foundation might be a pretty cool way to spend the next phase of life. Hobbyists like us might donate a little. Companies and industry groups might donate a lot. Imagine what could be accomplished with a growing foundation if a real peer reviewed study of Ich could be done for less than $10k. I imagine the politics behind it would be painful but some people thrive on that.

Anyone?

I would put in money to do a crowd funded study.
 

zalick

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First, let me say I am not an expert and defer 100% to Jay on all fish diseases, treatments and and infective organisms.

The average life cycle for Cryptocaryon irritans is much shorter than most hobbyist believe and strongly depends on the environment. In a QT tank lacking substrate with good oxygen saturation and no anaerobic pockets at 78-80 °F and 35 ppt salinity, Colorni (paper attached) has shown infective parasites will excyst from tomites within 13 days. The classic Colorni study was performed by microscopically examining tomites every day and measuring the released parasites (unfortunately, no numbers of actual tomites were reported in the short research paper, but I can extrapolate from previous studies in their lab that likely hundreds to thousands of tomites were examined, see thesis posted earlier in the thread). Most parasites were released in a few days, but the longest time for release was 13 days under the aforementioned conditions. Many people run their QT tanks at lower salinity (25 ppt) and the cycle is much longer at lower salinities (up to 28 days). So, I think we can safely assume that a 45 day fallow period for a QT tank is a very generous time (Jay mentioned this was also for treating another parasite named Neobenedenia).

In a display tank (DT), I think a longer fallow time may be warranted if tomonts are deposited in an anaerobic environment since the parasite will enter a dormant state that is likely viable for a long period of time (the attached paper shows tomonts will resume development after 1 month without any damage - this was posted in another thread - I apologize to whoever posted this for not crediting you). So, I think in a display tank, it's quite possible that C. irritans could easily survive a 78 day fallow period, if nothing else is done. Obviously, one needs to try to disturb anaerobic environments (i.e. regularly, vacuuming your sand during the fallow period to try to stir up and release dormant tomonts), but it is simply not possible to remove all anaerobic environments (i.e. deep within a live rock or within ceramic media).

If I had a C. irritans breakout in my DT and moved all of my fish to a QT for 78 days, I would rightfully be paranoid about reintroducing fish back into the DT. If a hobbyist is so patient and committed to treat and quarantine their fish for 78 or even 45 days, then I would add a black Molly to the DT as an indicator of residual parasites (see: humblefish quarantine protocols) before reintroducing all of my fish.
Great summary!

It appears a good method of DT fallow, regardless of 45 or 76 days, would include substrate stirring/vacuuming and raising the temp to 81 degrees.
 

nereefpat

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I haven't seen true copper toxicity myself in literally thousands of fishes I've treated in the two decades since I stopped using copper/citric acid mixes.
Thanks for the writeup.

In your experience, are there fishes that can't handle copper? Dragonettes, lions, others?
 
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Jay Hemdal

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks for the writeup.

In your experience, are there fishes that can't handle copper? Dragonettes, lions, others?
There are fish that can’t handle new, bare quarantine systems (dragonets, wrasse, etc) but as I said, I’ve seen no demonstrated copper toxicity in any fish since I switched to coppersafe and a spectrophotometer (or Hanna checker) for dosing. That said, lots of fish die during quarantine- poorly handled anthias, etc. I’ve done three studies since 1984 that showed a 40 to 60% mortality in fish from Indonesia or the Philippines that were tracked for 40 days post importation. This compares to a 6 to 15% rate from fish from better areas ... so with all these fish dying, no wonder folks are looking for a scapegoat!

Jay
 

crezguy

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Sounds like a problem that needs a grass roots foundation. BRS investigates is great but they are a (very caring) company and should be expected to investigate things they sell. That's their job. There is certainly little money in fish disease outside commercial aquaculture but how many hobbyists are there who have problems and could use some real science backed info? How many companies might benefit from it if all they can afford on their own is a single chemist? @Jay Hemdal , @Randy Holmes-Farley , @Humblefish and many others with lots of R2R badges do us a great service here and are legit heroes of the hobby but I think all of us would benefit immensely with some funded, peer reviewed scientific studies.

If I were nearing retirement, a Reef Aquarium Research Foundation might be a pretty cool way to spend the next phase of life. Hobbyists like us might donate a little. Companies and industry groups might donate a lot. Imagine what could be accomplished with a growing foundation if a real peer reviewed study of Ich could be done for less than $10k. I imagine the politics behind it would be painful but some people thrive on that.

Anyone?
Why don't we do a crowdfunding ?
 

DerekB4

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Newbie here started a fallow period Sunday. Glad to here I only need to go fallow for 45 days. Unfortunately all my fish have died.

How should I go about setting up a quarantine when I start adding fish again? Do I just buy a live cured rock from a Lfs so there is some bacteria? Or should I just buy a sponge filter and heater and start running it now?
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Newbie here started a fallow period Sunday. Glad to here I only need to go fallow for 45 days. Unfortunately all my fish have died.

How should I go about setting up a quarantine when I start adding fish again? Do I just buy a live cured rock from a Lfs so there is some bacteria? Or should I just buy a sponge filter and heater and start running it now?
In your case, I would buy a sponge filter and then use ammonium chloride to run the tank in (Dr. Tim's sells a product I think). That way, you aren't using any material from your diseased tank (that goes for all tank tools, hands, etc.!)
Don't use cured live rock as the calcium in that will interfere with copper treatments. Make sure your DT is 81 degrees, and remember, 45 days is the minimum time.

You should quarantine all new fish under a schedule like this:

Coppersafe for 30 days
3x prazipro treatments, 7 days apart.
2 weeks observation
FW dip to screen for flukes, then ok to move to DT


Jay
 

MohH

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Its all good to QT fish... i myself try my best to do it... first to fatten up new fish...( because we can all agree our fish are not in the best shape when we obtain them)..and to observe and treat infections etc... however how many of us QT everything else that go into our tanks, snails, corals, rocks, algae etc etc... i read somewhere someone said... if you are going to Qt then QT everything wet that go into your tank
 
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Cetus

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How could this apply to the invert quarantine process because lowering 76 days to 45 would be a major game changer. Of course some inverts require substrate even in a QT so that may make things strange and I'm not sure if certain sensitive corals would respond well to heightened temperatures. But let's say we're speaking about general hardy inverts like CUC or soft corals.
 

gunflintcamper

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At what point do you consider the fallow period successful?

We did 45 days fallow at 81°...aerated all dead areas, super careful about cross contamination, etc. Treated fish with 30 days of copper, finished out the fallow time by dropping copper to zero in HT and just observing and feeding a lot.

Lost zero fish. Put everyone back in display a week ago. But every morning I panic scanning for a white speck. Ugh. Stressful.

I was thinking the stress of moving the fish should get them to pick up any existing ich that survived pretty quick. But also have in my head that if it doesn’t show up for a month we are all clear?

How long before we can be absolutely confident it worked? or never? :(
 
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Jay Hemdal

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At what point do you consider the fallow period successful?

We did 45 days fallow at 81°...aerated all dead areas, super careful about cross contamination, etc. Treated fish with 30 days of copper, finished out the fallow time by dropping copper to zero in HT and just observing and feeding a lot.

Lost zero fish. Put everyone back in display a week ago. But every morning I panic scanning for a white speck. Ugh. Stressful.

I was thinking the stress of moving the fish should get them to pick up any existing ich that survived pretty quick. But also have in my head that if it doesn’t show up for a month we are all clear?

How long before we can be absolutely confident it worked? or never? :(
IMO - most cases of failed fallow periods can be linked back to some other failure- in the copper treatment, an invertebrate carrying it into the tank, tank tool contamination, etc.
45 days works when done correctly. Is 76 days safer? I suppose, but those same failures can happen just the same.
Jay
 
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Jay Hemdal

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How could this apply to the invert quarantine process because lowering 76 days to 45 would be a major game changer. Of course some inverts require substrate even in a QT so that may make things strange and I'm not sure if certain sensitive corals would respond well to heightened temperatures. But let's say we're speaking about general hardy inverts like CUC or soft corals.
The big issue are the invertebrates coming from tanks with fish in them (probably) and did those fish have active infections (you may not know).
The temperature is a big issue for corals, lower temps means longer fallow periods, but the exact timing has never been worked out.
Jay
 

gunflintcamper

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IMO - most cases of failed fallow periods can be linked back to some other failure- in the copper treatment, an invertebrate carrying it into the tank, tank tool contamination, etc.
45 days works when done correctly. Is 76 days safer? I suppose, but those same failures can happen just the same.
Jay
But I mean...at what point after adding fish back to display do we consider our own treatment process successful?

Without adding a single thing...how long would (could) a failed fallow/hospital tank process take to manifest itself?
 
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Problem is that many invertebrates can't live in 81 degrees for that extended period of time...according to the Humblefish forum consensus
After discussions with Jay in this thread, reading the literature and the comments from the "76 day rule" author, I would absolutely trust 45 days. In fact, I think its likely that 45 days is longer than necessary and I'd bet it covers 100% at 81 degrees.

For ich to survive past the 45 days, at 81 degrees, would be many many many standard deviations from the mean life cycle. I just don't think that is possible.
 

gunflintcamper

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Problem is that many invertebrates can't live in 81 degrees for that extended period of time...according to the Humblefish forum consensus
We have a coral banded, lots of snails and zoas and Octospawn that all did fine. The torches didn’t make it. :( Unsure tho if it was the temp or water not being stable without fish.
 

GGonzo

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We have a coral banded, lots of snails and zoas and Octospawn that all did fine. The torches didn’t make it. :( Unsure tho if it was the temp or water not being stable without fish.
Mostly my corals are softies as I'm a newby to corals. I was really more concerned about my clean up crew since my tank is only 9 months old with mostly man made rock and the ugly phase lasts a bit longer with that rock. My protein skimmer is still pulling out tons of gunk, I assume due to the ugly phase.
I'm all for increasing my temperature to 80.6 or 80.1, can't recall at the moment what the recommended temperature was...just didn't want to kill anything.
 

gunflintcamper

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Mostly my corals are softies as I'm a newby to corals. I was really more concerned about my clean up crew since my tank is only 9 months old with mostly man made rock and the ugly phase lasts a bit longer with that rock. My protein skimmer is still pulling out tons of gunk, I assume due to the ugly phase.
I'm all for increasing my temperature to 80.6 or 80.1, can't recall at the moment what the recommended temperature was...just didn't want to kill anything.
Our tank was only 3 months old. I get it. Fun way to start learning the hard stuff!

We set the tank at 81°...80.6° is the recommendation, we tested temp with multiple thermometers to make sure it never dropped below that.
 

GGonzo

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Our tank was only 3 months old. I get it. Fun way to start learning the hard stuff!

We set the tank at 81°...80.6° is the recommendation, we tested temp with multiple thermometers to make sure it never dropped below that.
Yeah I have one electric temp monitor, one that floats around the tank and one that stays down in the sand bed that is directly in the middle of my 125 gallon tank. I got temperature readings everywhere! LOL
 
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