A 100% waterchange -would that help?

[Katze]

Hello everyone,

After trying multiple ways of getting nitrates under control in my 100 gallon I have come to the conclusion to do a (nearly) 100% waterchange though I'm not sure whether that would help, and would the nitrates simply go back up in a couple of weeks.

Livestock:
Fire goby
Longnose butterflyfish
Sailfin molly
Squarespot anthias
(only 1 from each)
Corals:
Zoas -they look well but they don't grow
Mushrooms -exactly the same
LPS would wither away in just about 2 months or so

Aquascape:

About 30 kg of live rock
Bare bottom (sand was removed to decrease detritus, which did not help nor did it worsen anything, I mean there is no detritus on the bottom but the NO3 says otherwise)

Filtration:
Skimmer: Bubble Magus rated for 500l (135g)
Filter sock
Refugium -the algae simply won't grow, it never did I use a power head to make it tumble and a good quality freshwater light to give it energy
Some biological media for bacteria

Routine:

Refill with RODI water less than 1l a day, 0 TDS
Feeding the fishies 1x/day, no food falls to the bottom, or if it does the wavemakers take care of it
Cleaning the skimmer cup 1x/week
Cleaning the filter sock 3-4x/week
Testing NO3 and PO4 1x/week

Parameters:
NO3: 25-50 (salifert)
PO4: 0,08 (Hanna)
Salinity: 1025

Current algae in DT: some cyano but not much, I usually scrub it off with a soft brush

I think I mentioned everything, feel free to ask questions!
I'm longing to keep more interesting corals, but it never was succesful, I believe it's due to the nitrates...

Have a nice day/evening!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I certainly would not do a 100% water change based on the info posted. Nitrate at 25-50 ppm is not killing normal corals.

Randy’s Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges

Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges by Randy Holmes-Farley Almost nothing in the world of reef aquarium chemistry causes as much discussion as selecting and maintaining ranges for nitrate and phosphate. Some aquarists want low targets, some want...

www.reef2reef.com

• What targets seem reasonable? Of course, that depends on all the other factors at play, such as types of corals, availability of ammonia, particulate foods, etc. However, for a mature mixed reef, this would be how I personally would run it:
  • Let nitrate float between 5 ppm and 50 ppm. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
  • Above 50 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by organic carbon dosing, turf or macroalgae, etc.
  • Below 5 ppm, I’d begin to dose ammonia or feed more. The target level might drop lower if dosing ammonia, just like the heavy in/heavy out scenario where nitrate may not be as needed.
  • Let phosphate float between about 0.06 ppm and 0.3 ppm. This range is higher than I’ve recommended in the past. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
  • Above about 0.3 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by turf or macroalgae, or a binder such as GFO or lanthanum (has its own risks to tangs). If a binder: GO SLOW. Turf and macroalgae will typically be slow enough.
  • Below 0.06 ppm, I’d begin to dose sodium phosphate or feed more to get the level up.

 

[Katze]

I certainly would not do a 100% water change based on the info posted. Nitrate at 25-50 ppm is not killing normal corals.

Randy’s Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges

Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges by Randy Holmes-Farley Almost nothing in the world of reef aquarium chemistry causes as much discussion as selecting and maintaining ranges for nitrate and phosphate. Some aquarists want low targets, some want...

www.reef2reef.com

• What targets seem reasonable? Of course, that depends on all the other factors at play, such as types of corals, availability of ammonia, particulate foods, etc. However, for a mature mixed reef, this would be how I personally would run it:
  • Let nitrate float between 5 ppm and 50 ppm. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
  • Above 50 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by organic carbon dosing, turf or macroalgae, etc.
  • Below 5 ppm, I’d begin to dose ammonia or feed more. The target level might drop lower if dosing ammonia, just like the heavy in/heavy out scenario where nitrate may not be as needed.
  • Let phosphate float between about 0.06 ppm and 0.3 ppm. This range is higher than I’ve recommended in the past. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
  • Above about 0.3 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by turf or macroalgae, or a binder such as GFO or lanthanum (has its own risks to tangs). If a binder: GO SLOW. Turf and macroalgae will typically be slow enough.
  • Below 0.06 ppm, I’d begin to dose sodium phosphate or feed more to get the level up.

I see, however I can close out lighting (I measured it a month or 2 ago), and flow as roots of the issue.
So I'd think it must be something with the water, either something is missing or something is too much.
An ICP test would cost 40$ while salt for 600l (162g) of water change would be 55$.
If there is an alternative, more cost effective route I'm all in :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I see, however I can close out lighting (I measured it a month or 2 ago), and flow as roots of the issue.
So I'd think it must be something with the water, either something is missing or something is too much.
An ICP test would cost 40$ while salt for 600l (162g) of water change would be 55$.
If there is an alternative, more cost effective route I'm all in :)

There certainly could be other water problems that a water change could help, at least temporarily.

Are you doing any regular water changes?

Are you monitoring calcium and alk?
Are you adding any trace elements?

 

[rtparty]

Cost effective? Do nothing. Those levels are of zero concern. Remove the biological media. They simply become nitrate factories as they “steal” the ammonia from everything else.

Super cheap? Dose a little vinegar daily.

 

[Katze]

There certainly could be other water problems that a water change could help, at least temporarily.

Are you doing any regular water changes?

Are you monitoring calcium and alk?
Are you adding any trace elements?

No I'm not doing any of those I figured that if nothing grows then why dose anything

 

[Katze]

Cost effective? Do nothing. Those levels are of zero concern. Remove the biological media. They simply become nitrate factories as they “steal” the ammonia from everything else.

Super cheap? Dose a little vinegar daily.

I tried vinegar but honestly nothing changed. It's interesting that you mentioned the removal of bio-media, wouldn't that help make things worse ? Or they remove NH3 before corals could assimilate it thus starving them?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No I'm not doing any of those I figured that if nothing grows then why dose anything

Sounds like a catch 22.

 

[Katze]

Sounds like a catch 22.

What would that mean ?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What would that mean ?

Sorry, it's an expression from an old movie. It's definition is something like this:


a dilemma from which there is no escape because of mutually conflicting conditions.

If nothing grows because of a lack of some element, and you do not dose or change water because nothing grows, you will never escape that situation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

THe book and movie origin of that phrase is quite famous and and interesting. It is detailed here:

 

[rtparty]

I tried vinegar but honestly nothing changed. It's interesting that you mentioned the removal of bio-media, wouldn't that help make things worse ? Or they remove NH3 before corals could assimilate it thus starving them?

Dose more. Get another test kit to confirm readings.

If you’re dosing the proper amount of vinegar, nitrates will drop in time. If they aren’t, look at the test kit being used and replace

 

[Katze]

Sorry, it's an expression from an old movie. It's definition is something like this:


a dilemma from which there is no escape because of mutually conflicting conditions.

If nothing grows because of a lack of some element, and you do not dose or change water because nothing grows, you will never escape that situation.

Ooh I understand. I may go the ICP route.
But then for example:
ICP shows low iodide and iron
I start to dose those
How will I find the equillibrium of dosing and not overdosing? The rate of consumption to be precise

 

[Reefering1]

More tests

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For fast depleting ions such as iron, manganese and iodide, I thing that dosing a full NSW level once or twice a week is fine.

 

[Miami Reef]

Nitrate at 25-50 ppm is not killing normal corals.

Do we know what corals high nitrate kill?

 

[Dan_P]

Hello everyone,

After trying multiple ways of getting nitrates under control in my 100 gallon I have come to the conclusion to do a (nearly) 100% waterchange though I'm not sure whether that would help, and would the nitrates simply go back up in a couple of weeks.

Livestock:
Fire goby
Longnose butterflyfish
Sailfin molly
Squarespot anthias
(only 1 from each)
Corals:
Zoas -they look well but they don't grow
Mushrooms -exactly the same
LPS would wither away in just about 2 months or so

Aquascape:

About 30 kg of live rock
Bare bottom (sand was removed to decrease detritus, which did not help nor did it worsen anything, I mean there is no detritus on the bottom but the NO3 says otherwise)

Filtration:
Skimmer: Bubble Magus rated for 500l (135g)
Filter sock
Refugium -the algae simply won't grow, it never did I use a power head to make it tumble and a good quality freshwater light to give it energy
Some biological media for bacteria

Routine:

Refill with RODI water less than 1l a day, 0 TDS
Feeding the fishies 1x/day, no food falls to the bottom, or if it does the wavemakers take care of it
Cleaning the skimmer cup 1x/week
Cleaning the filter sock 3-4x/week
Testing NO3 and PO4 1x/week

Parameters:
NO3: 25-50 (salifert)
PO4: 0,08 (Hanna)
Salinity: 1025

Current algae in DT: some cyano but not much, I usually scrub it off with a soft brush

I think I mentioned everything, feel free to ask questions!
I'm longing to keep more interesting corals, but it never was succesful, I believe it's due to the nitrates...

Have a nice day/evening!

I assume this is a relatively new aquarium (under a year old). It does not sound like there are any issues although the slow growing coral could annoying. The poor Cheato growth might be indicative of trace element depletion, although light levels and flow play important roles. If hair algae and slime are growing on the Cheato, it is definitely stressed.

The vinegar dosing that appears not to be working could just be that the nitrate test is not detecting the nitrate reduction and you quit the dosing too quickly because you thought nothing was happening.

I wouldn’t react to this situation with drastic measures. Your system as you describe it is not in trouble.

 

[Katze]

For fast depleting ions such as iron, manganese and iodide, I thing that dosing a full NSW level once or twice a week is fine.

By any chance, do you have a guide for dosing such elements?

 

[Katze]

Do we know what corals high nitrate kill?

Yes in this system I tried:
Acans, Torches, Acropora, Pocillopora
Nothing else comes to mind

 

[Katze]

I assume this is a relatively new aquarium (under a year old). It does not sound like there are any issues although the slow growing coral could annoying. The poor Cheato growth might be indicative of trace element depletion, although light levels and flow play important roles. If hair algae and slime are growing on the Cheato, it is definitely stressed.

The vinegar dosing that appears not to be working could just be that the nitrate test is not detecting the nitrate reduction and you quit the dosing too quickly because you thought nothing was happening.

I wouldn’t react to this situation with drastic measures. Your system as you describe it is not in trouble.

Now that you mention it, yes ! My chaeto is mildly covered by the cyano.
I forgot to mention that the system turned 1 year old this month, so it is still rather young.
By slow coral growth I mean very slow for example: my rhodactis has been in the tank since september yet no new heads have grown, another example is my zoa frag I have had it since july and only 2 new heads formed.