A discussion on immunity

[alanbetiger]

Paul
Again it feels like you use the word immune and healthy as the same thing and interchangeable.

Do you think
A - Introducing known pathogens to tanks is ideal to promote overall true adapative immunity to your fish. And that is the main reason your tank is healthier. If you don't do this your fish can't be as healthy/immune as possible.
Or
B - Your tank has an overall superior health from all the little nuances you do. I'd argue nutrition. Because of that superior overall health you simply don't worry about adding any pathogens. Which is what you refer to as immune.

The end result is the same but fundamentally very different views.

My view with my known ich carrier added to my tank was that in the grand scheme of pathogens of fish I'd say Ich is lower in severity. So a calculated risk of seeing a fish torn up from fighting and a few spots of Ich isn't too scary. I saw it chow down at the store on flakes so took a chance that all my other healthy fish would be able to fight off a low pathogen burden from this obvious damaged fish. They eat a varied diet. Time will tell if that works...yes I understand it could of carried other pathogens and some will call me an idiot. I won't do this again for at least 6 months or a year. Not on a regular basis. But that fish was not added to purposefully boast the adaptive immunity of my other fish.

 

[alanbetiger]

Yeah I should add I'm not antiquarantine. My wife only wants pretty tanks in the house so the only place I could put one is in the garage. Making a habitable tank in a garage in Texas was not cost feasible with 110F summers. But I would quarantine if I could set one up in the house.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Becaue they can still be carriers of pathogens. There are methods such as TTM that don't use medicines. And there are ways to filter pathogens in qt as well.

The vast majority of fish that get sick and die do so without any attempts to qt. No, qt is not perfect and some fish don't survive the process, but for most hobbyists a qt procedure will save far more fish than it will harm.

Just a passing thought on QT, if the fish you have bought looks fine and you want to qt it then why not just put it in a separate tank and leave it alone for a period to see if it does develope something then treat as necessary? Just some ramblings, not approved by anyone..

Its quite confusing really.
This newb who wrote this sorta does that. He even uses live rock in the QT.
https://reefs.com/magazine/from-reef-to-reef-tank-66/
No idea how he got the job where he works.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yeah I should add I'm not antiquarantine. My wife only wants pretty tanks in the house so the only place I could put one is in the garage. Making a habitable tank in a garage in Texas was not cost feasible with 110F summers. But I would quarantine if I could set one up in the house.

Again a bit more confusion on my part with methods. If one uses ceramic media, plastic corals and rock w caves etc(ala tanked), not sure why that doesn't work.

 

[Brew12]

I think as far as the actual science goes it ends at "the adaptive immune system exists".

Not sure if you have read this, but I believe it is the earliest testing done on the adaptive immunity of fish to Crypto. The entire thing is worth reading, but the specific part starts on page 165.
https://pearl.plymouth.ac.uk/bitstr...PETER JOHN BURGESS.PDF?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 

[alanbetiger]

Again a bit more confusion on my part with methods. If one uses ceramic media, plastic corals and rock w caves etc(ala tanked), not sure why that doesn't work.

You're definitely right, it's possible. Doesn't have to just be barren with PVC. Just not in my house. I had 4 tanks in the old house. Our agreement was I could get one large tank but not have tanks in every room in the house like before (regardless multiple tanks were off the table so I went with bigger) ...happy wife happy life, or something like that haha

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

...happy wife happy life, or something like that haha

Uhh, exactly like that. something we should all agree on...

 

[Paul B]

Paul
Again it feels like you use the word immune and healthy as the same thing and interchangeable.

Do you think
A - Introducing known pathogens to tanks is ideal to promote overall true adapative immunity to your fish. And that is the main reason your tank is healthier. If you don't do this your fish can't be as healthy/immune as possible.
Or
B - Your tank has an overall superior health from all the little nuances you do. I'd argue nutrition. Because of that superior overall health you simply don't worry about adding any pathogens. Which is what you refer to as immune.

The end result is the same but fundamentally very different views.

My view with my known ich carrier added to my tank was that in the grand scheme of pathogens of fish I'd say Ich is lower in severity. So a calculated risk of seeing a fish torn up from fighting and a few spots of Ich isn't too scary. I saw it chow down at the store on flakes so took a chance that all my other healthy fish would be able to fight off a low pathogen burden from this obvious damaged fish. They eat a varied diet. Time will tell if that works...yes I understand it could of carried other pathogens and some will call me an idiot. I won't do this again for at least 6 months or a year. Not on a regular basis. But that fish was not added to purposefully boast the adaptive immunity of my other fish.

Alan, yes I know I use Immune and Healthy as the same thing and I believe that. A fish in the sea is considered healthy because it lives out it's life, spawns and dies probably by getting eaten by something. They only die of old age in a tank. But a fish is composed of 3 systems, there's growth, reproduction, and Immunity. Immunity is an integral part of a healthy fish and the part that uses the most calories (in a male fish anyway)
Immunity involves producing antibodies and antiparisitic substances which are constantly replaced because they are in the slime which is water based and always in the process of sloughing off. That is one way the fish removes parasites. If you remove the immunity of a fish by keeping it away from pathogens, that fish is not complete as a large part of it's physiology is missing. Of course the fish can function but one third of it's systems no longer function. It's exactly like a cancer patient who had his immune system completely irradiated to kill his white blood cells in the hope of killing the cancer. Is that person, in that condition very healthy or is his health compromised?
He can of course leave the hospital in that condition and wear a mask in public, take antibodies every day or live in a bubble, but a human has the opportunity to re build his immunity gradually through his food and just the fact that he goes outside and is exposed to pathogens in the hope that eventually his immune system will build itself up and he will be cancer free.

A fish that has been quarantined for 72 days and kept away from pathogens has a very weak, if any immune system. Then he is put in a tank with no pathogens for the rest of his life so he has no opportunity to rebuild his immunity. Is that fish very healthy? I don't know for sure but I would think a fish with all his systems functioning correctly would be healthier.

I think the answer to your question is B. I don't go out to find sick fish to put in my tank to enhance their immunity. I believe the parasites are living and reproducing in my tank just as they do in the sea. They can't multiply to fast because they have a hard time holding on to a fish long enough to go through their cycle.
Very rarely, when I have a fish dying, normally of old age. (And I did post about such a fish not long ago) I may see a few parasites on it. That is because as a fish dies, it's immunity fades until the fish is dead.
I also occasionally see one of two parasites on a new fish. That parasite may have come from the store or it may be one of the parasites living in my tank. I never think anything of it because in a day, that spot if gone. Yes, always.

My fish are healthy and spawning due to the "Live bacteria" in their food that they get at every meal. They also get commercial food with added pro-biotics, but pro-biotics would only be good bacteria that are helpful for fish digestion and maybe some other things but I feel they will not do much to enhance the fishes immune system because a fish needs harmful bacteria and parasites for that.

I really don't know why I get so much flack for having immune fish. What's so bad about having fish that always spawn and never get sick. Fish that I can buy and throw in my tank. Is that a bad thing?
All I do is feed a little different and don't quarantine so I think my method is a lot easier and maybe cheaper as I use some food from a fish market which is very cheap.
I also have no need for medications or a hospital tank. People argue with me like I am doing something bad as if I were killing my fish, and the fact is, I "may" have some of the oldest fish on here and virtually none of them ever died of a disease.
(I didn't mean to make all thar red and I don't know how it happened)

Part of the link that Brew posted:

Quote:

2.3). The 12 fish were divided into three groups and held under non-stressful


hyposaline conditions without further exposure to C.irritans for either 1.5 months (5


fish), 3 months (5 fish), or. 6 months (2 fish). At the appropriate time, fish were

individually challenged with 5,000 theronts, along with weight matched control mullet

previously unexposed to C.irritans. Numbers of trophonts released were recorded for


each fish (Table 15), the degree of immune protection being indicated by the numbers

sustained following challenge as compared with that from the paired control. All 12

experimental fish exhibited significant immune protection to challenge. Very low

parasite levels (%PEI S 0.'2%), indicating a high. degree of sustained immune

protection, were observed in fish held for up to 3 months, with full protection being

165

 

[Paul B]

People also say that they quarantine to get the fish healthy and eating so it is ready for life in a tank. I think living in a smaller, more sterile tank with PVC elbows is very stressful and the fish would rather take it's chances in your tank.
And why did you buy a fish that wasn't eating in the store?
The possum wrasse, flasher wrasse and small "whatever it is fish I added last week hid for a week and now except for that little unknown fish are out and eating along with their friends. It is normal for them to hide for a few days and I am sure that little guy will come out when he is ready but I think that is a type of fish that I will rarely, if ever see.
I have never lost a fish through disease after I introduced him to my tank. (unless the thing was near death when I put him in) I have had fish jump out and I have had fish disappear but that is normal in any tank. My tank has a lot of hiding places and many large bristle worms and I am not even sure how many or exactly what fish I have as I am old and lose track. I occasionally find a fish that I have not seen in months and I assume they were happily munching on something in the back of the tank where I can't see.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I really don't know why I get so much flack for having immune fish.

It's your luck with the supermodels Paul. Don't be fooled.

 

[alanbetiger]

Paul thanks for the explanation. We actually think similarly just say it different. It took me awhile to realize you were thinking healthy and immune were the same. I may have been pigeonholed in my thinking when I hear immune because I have a medical background. When I hear that I really only think of the adaptive immune response. For instance, a 600lb guy with heart disease living off of fast food that has been vaccinated against...Rabies (had to pick something). He'd still be okay if bitten by a rabid animal but most would agree he was far from Healthy. Not a direct analogy, vaccine vs direct contact, but my head hurts trying to think of a better analogy.
I thought you were advocating pathogens needed to be added to tanks in order to be Immune.
I agree. Get healthier fish through husbandry and you don't need to be AS concerned about pathogens.

 

[Brew12]

Ok Paul, time for me to disagree a little bit.
While the innate and adaptive immunity of fish are most certainly interconnected I haven't seen any reason that a fish can't have a well developed innate immune system and be healthy even if it's adaptive immune system is limited to what it is ready to combat.
After all, there is no such thing as a sterile reef tank. Some may look clean, but if it growing corals, it isn't sterile.

 

[Paul B]

Brew, it certainly can be "healthy" if that is what you want to call healthy and want to keep that fish away from any pathogens for it's entire life. I want my fish what I call healthy by having all their systems healthy and functioning. Of course it does work both ways. I am not sure if a fish functions well for many years with a compromised immune system because I am not an ichthyologists and I am fairly sure they don't know either. Only the fish knows. So if you have a fish and it is spawning and living to what it's lifespan is considered to be, I would assume it is healthy. I don't know anyone with an old tank that quarantines so I have no data on it.
There is certainly no such thing as a sterile reef tank but by the same thinking there is no ocean without parasites and other pathogens which fish were built to live with.
But why does it seem bad to have immune fish, what is the problem?
Wouldn't it be nice to buy a fish and dump it in your tank with no worries about it's health. Why go through all that trouble and then have a fish with such a weak immune system. I don't get it, but maybe it's just me.
Does anyone on here have very old spawning fish, near their presumed lifespan that quarantined everything. If they do, I guess it works and it's not hurting the fish. ;Smuggrin Your fish probably love you.
Most fish we keep live 12 or 15 years with clowns approaching 30 years. Smaller fish of course live less, maybe five years. I am surprised that Bangai Cardinals have such a short lifespan given the size of the fish. Even seahorses have a longer life.

 

[mcarroll]

The answer has more to do with genetics than dirty rags over cuts.

Can you guess what happens frequently with bacteria and genes?


BTW, did anyone downplaying the bacterial/immunity/health angle make it through this article and find any interesting information?

We are living in a bacterial world, and it's impacting us more than previously thought
(repeat link from earlier)

 

[mcarroll]

I do want to clarify something that makes Paul's system so amazing. When a person become immune to something, odds are we will remain immune for life. A fish will lose their immunity approximately 6 months after their last exposure to a parasite or pathogen. His system wouldn't work nearly as well if he didn't regularly introduce parasites into his system.

Actually there's a good chance it would still work very well since the immune system can be activated even by similar organism and stimulated even by unrelated ones.

Humans frequently need booster shots for vaccines to stay current.

6 months and 72 days are particular numbers for particular strains of particular pathogens....even at that, those numbers are too specific for the use they are given....nobody knows the strain of any pathogen they have....so for the end user, how certain are these numbers when you add it all up?

The studies I have seen show that parasites like ich and velvet in a closed system will stop being viable after around 4 years. So, in terms of the average hobbyist, yes once and ich tank, always an ich tank. In a system like Paul's where it has been running for 40+ years, not at all.

LINKS PLZ

I haven't seen any reason that a fish can't have a well developed innate immune system and be healthy even if it's adaptive immune system is limited to what it is ready to combat.

You're right....immune systems can be "charged up" by organisms related to pathogens as well as unrelated.

It all seems to be quite a bit more complex than anyone thought.

You know we apparently share >30% of our genome with bacteria and that's what allows them to communicate with and control us? We're VERY hip to their methods of signaling. Fish are built the same way in this respect.

 

[Paul B]

Wow, almost 15,000 people read this and I would imagine 12 or 13,000 fish. Only about 6 people posted, what are the rest of you people doing? I know it's tomato growing season, but I planted mine last week.
Where are all the people with opposing views, or the people with the 40 year old quarantined fish. Carp can live 60 years, just as a point of interest.
Today I am going to have a procedure where they stick needles in my back and inject me with Prizapro or coppersafe, I don't know which one. But If I were immune from back pain I wouldn't need that and I could get hit by a 1965 Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser and it wouldn't even bother me. That was the big station wagon. (google it)
I will go on my boat this week with my Grand Kids and collect some mud to throw in my tank. I would imagine there is all sorts of good and bad bacteria in there to enhance immunity as that is one of the secrets so don't tell anyone.
Have a great day. You too Humble and Merideth because I know you secretly read this thread and grit your teeth.
But I love you "Guys"

Count the male snails

 

[Paul B]

Ah got it. And we assume he's adding ten new strains of ick over the course of 6 years approximately. Plus other pathogens and parasites in order to remain immune.

No offense. But that gets a bit far fetched.

I think you guys are thinking too much like scientists and the problem with scientists is that they went to to much college. (sorry)
I didn't go to college, (there was that draft and war thing) but I have something I consider better. I learned what I felt I wanted to learn when I wanted to learn it the way I wanted to learn it. I am a compulsive science reader but I am also a compulsive doer. I SCUBA dive all over the place to learn about a fish. I learned more about Moorish Idols in a couple of hours under water with them than everything that is written about them, which is IMO mostly wrong. Scientists working in labs can't learn about animals the way I feel you need to do it like In a natural setting like Diane Fossey studied gorillas. We keep saying things like an ich parasite lives and reproduces for 4 years. That was Axelrod and Burgess who came up with that and in a lab setting that may be correct but it must have been a boring 4 years counting these things. I disagreed with their findings then and I disagree with them now. Not because I think they counted wrong, but because as our tank ages, In real life not in a lab where nothing else is added, different strains of parasite and viruses are constantly added. Who is to say those different strains of parasite don't reproduce with the original strains so their supposed life times of 4 years get constantly increased forever. Did the Neanderthals die out or did they mate with the good looking other **** Sapiens in PTA meetings? We can't think like scientists think in labs because fish don't come from labs. Scientists are very smart and have more degrees then thermometers but most of them don't keep fish tanks. We have to think like a fish but we don't necessarily have to look like them.
Parasites, bacteria and viruses all interact with each other constantly changing the dynamics of each one. Viruses invade parasites and bacteria to change how they think and act. OK, I'm done

 

[Scrappy RN]

Paul, as a nurse, a mom, and an observer of people and nature in general, I have to agree with your overall premise that building overall immunity by natural exposure to pathogens makes for a healthier organism. I've observed this with humans all too often. My kids played in mud puddles, sand boxes, climbed trees, horses and swam in creeks, lakes and oceans their whole lives. I have never used hand sanitizer at home, just a good soap and water wash right before eating because sand in the food doesn't taste good, lol. My kids have rarely had to visit a doctor. Usually just to sew up lacerations from before-mentioned playing. When they were very young I kept other children at our home to make ends meet. Invariably, the kids who's parents were neat freaks were always coming down with colds and such. They were also MUCH less muscular and healthy looking than my kids. At the time, before I was a nurse, I remember observing this and had to start telling moms, "Your kids WILL get dirty at my house. Don't send them in fancy clothes and expect them to come home pristine. We play hard, work hard, clean up before meals and after a great nap, start over again, lol." The moms who believed me and let their kids get dirty, exposed to sun and germs and bugs, noticed that their kids were glowing. I had a mom tell me that specifically. "He just LOOKS better!" she said. Sadly, other parents were more worried about the clean Nikes and left with their kids looking wistfully in the direction of my large backyard.

Now I realize that this is simplistic and not 100% the cause of their increased health. Just getting out from in front of the TV and out into the sunshine probably helped a lot too. But now that I'm in the medical field, the research I've done and the observations I've made have done nothing but increase my belief in my earlier observations. I was an ER nurse for years. Everyone in medicine knows that ER nurses have the best immune systems of all nurses. Why?? Because we are CONSTANTLY exposed to a multitude of germs on a daily basis. We get sick multiple times the first year and then after that it's rare for an ER nurse to get truly sick (unless it's because we imbibed a little too many margueritas on Cinco de Mayo...but who's counting?) What do people think allergy shots are made of? Particles of the thing that actually CAUSES the allergy to begin with! Your method makes perfect sense.

As for the genetics angle one poster mentioned. Look up the field of epigenetics. We have discovered that exposure to things can permanently alter your genes such that immune function (or malfunction as the case may be) can be passed along to our offspring. So if a person is raised being constantly sheltered from pathogens and has a weaker immue system as a result, that weakness can be inherited by the next SEVERAL generations. And of course the flip side is true too. If you are exposed to low level pathogens all the time and your immune system builds up, that too can be passed along.

I have a friend with a saltwater system that he's had going for close to 30 years. His clown is over 20 years old and he has at least one fish older than that. He's never used a QT either. I just recently got into saltwater (like last month!) and he helped me get started. Imagine my dismay when he gave me a dirty, slimy, green-tinged bucket of crap to put in my beautiful, pristine tank to "get me started" lol! I swallowed hard, looked away, and dumped it all in. But it's working so far. I've tested the water, added a few things already and everything is going well.

My question for you is, how can I replicate your natural system if I don't live anywhere near an ocean? I'd love to be able to do this and feed my fish live foods, etc. but don't know how yet. If you have links to articles you've already written that would be awesome!

Thanks for sharing, btw!

 

[Paul B]

Scrappy RN. First of all let me say that "I LOVE YOU". It is very rare that someone, especially a nurse agrees with me so I am so glad you posted. For some reason people in this hobby have always resisted the idea of immune fish and insist on sterilizing everything. I want things sterilized in a hospital because I don't want to catch the social disease the guy before me had on the same table. I can see why your kids are healthy and as I stated riding on the New York subway system for 40 years I encountered every disease on Earth and I did it every day. I rarely get sick and I believe it has something to do with that.
This is a bucket of amphipods, mud and other things I collect a few times a year (but not in Tennessee) I just collect this stuff and dump the entire thing in my reef.
I am going for a medical procedure right now and I hope I have a RN like you that I can talk fish to, but I doubt it most of them want to know about my medications and other boring stuff like that.
Then I am babysitting for a couple of days but when that is over I will send you stuff to read.
Thanks again for agreeing and bringing some medical knowledge to this thread.

 

[Scrappy RN]

Scrappy RN. First of all let me say that "I LOVE YOU". It is very rare that someone, especially a nurse agrees with me so I am so glad you posted. For some reason people in this hobby have always resisted the idea of immune fish and insist on sterilizing everything. I want things sterilized in a hospital because I don't want to catch the social disease the guy before me had on the same table. I can see why your kids are healthy and as I stated riding on the New York subway system for 40 years I encountered every disease on Earth and I did it every day. I rarely get sick and I believe it has something to do with that.
This is a bucket of amphipods, mud and other things I collect a few times a year (but not in Tennessee) I just collect this stuff and dump the entire thing in my reef.
I am going for a medical procedure right now and I hope I have a RN like you that I can talk fish to, but I doubt it most of them want to know about my medications and other boring stuff like that.
Then I am babysitting for a couple of days but when that is over I will send you stuff to read.
Thanks again for agreeing and bringing some medical knowledge to this thread.

Lol, glad I could make you happy! We all need love

Good luck on the medical procedure and I will pray for a jazzy nurse who loves fish for you. (Who is also medically competent, of course!!)

And sterilization of your medical environment is definitely called for. Small scale exposure over time is one thing but sudden introduction of large amounts of the killer pathogens that lurk in hospitals to those not normally exposed is quite another!

Good luck and I look forward to hearing from you again