A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

[iMi]

I think the problem he's having is that he's starving the bacteria. Establishing a cycle is one thing. Maintaining it is another. I'll read through that tread you mentioned. Sounds interesting.

 

[brandon429]

Here’s a three year unfed fallow test

post 188

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/page-10

we must discuss test misreads, when does that become possible for Chris- if his posts are real...

If we don’t see the dated paper pic next to an updated test from him I bet he’s just grabbing random pics off the web.

all cycle troubleshoots must first establish if the test kits are known to read right or not, we have skipped that with Chris’ ammonia claims. When dealing with kits accepted known to misread we have to use alternate refereeing for the cycle call.


We establish here that no cycle becomes undone once its set. Live rocks can transfer tanks infinitely without loss of cycle.

 

[iMi]

Here’s a three year unfed fallow test

post 188

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/page-10

we must discuss test misreads, when does that become possible for Chris- if his posts are real...

If we don’t see the dated paper pic next to an updated test from him I bet he’s just grabbing random pics off the web.

all cycle troubleshoots must first establish if the test kits are known to read right or not, we have skipped that with Chris’ ammonia claims. When dealing with kits accepted known to misread we have to use alternate refereeing for the cycle call.


We establish here that no cycle becomes undone once its set. Live rocks can transfer tanks infinitely without loss of cycle.

I am a little doubtful of what's going on with Chris's tank as well. Look, I just cycled the new nano within a week and only tested the water a few times. Progression was straightforward and as expected. I did start with live sand, which to underscore your point, is shipped wet in a bag and survives just fine. Bacteria also reproduces rapidly. It's really not a rocket science.

In reality I probably didn't need to add any bottled bacteria but the rock I have is non-living so I figured it wouldn't hurt.

Edit to add that cycling a tank is NOT the same as maturing it and letting it balance out completely.

 

[brandon429]

Agreed as soon as we earn a skip cycle, non quarantined fish go right in only to die in six months. It’s indeed a double edged sword

Chris added two eels and four other fish immediately, from petco...they died weeks later

that’s known to be problematic in the fish disease forum :)

 

[iMi]

Agreed as soon as we earn a skip cycle, non quarantined fish go right in only to die in six months. It’s indeed a double edged sword

Chris added two eels and four other fish immediately, from petco...they died weeks later

that’s known to be problematic in the fish disease forum :)

Doesn't that make sense though?

Even if he initailly established the cycle, he just bombed it with a massive injection of nutrient from a large number of fish. There's going to be a bump before things balance out again. Apparently his bump was deadly.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

If ammonia were the culprit in that case you would expect death in an hours time frame not weeks. Its a bad idea all around but a lack of a cycle is not what killed them, IMO.

 

[iMi]

If ammonia were the culprit in that case you would expect death in an hours time frame not weeks. Its a bad idea all around but a lack of a cycle is not what killed them, IMO.

I assumed they died shortly after he added them... now the mystery deepens.

 

[fenderchamp]

I just put a piece of live rock in my brand new 3.5 gallon tank. I did it Last Friday 2/12/.21. The rock is probably about 3 lbs. It has coraline algae on it, though in the last 5 days I've had it, the coraline seems to have faded a little bit. I put a couple of hermit crabs in there with the rock. I haven't added any bacteria or anything else other than the 2 crabs and 1 small pellet of food.

Are you telling me that if my rock was already cured, my tank should be cycled and good to go. I don't have a test kit, but I could get my water tested at the fish shop. If the rock's bacteria colony isn't in good shape, would I test positive for Ammonia already? I haven't done anything but fill the tank with water, put the rock in it and turn on the system pump/lights/heater.

 

[brandon429]

It means this: the ability of that live rock sitting right square in the water flow is going to mask the inability of the inert portions of rock if this is a new tank. It will cast off its own bacteria and seed inert surfaces in twenty days, no extra feeding required.

if the chunk is very small this effect will be less than if it’s 1/3 of your rock scape. Add bottle bac if a tiny chip


here we are using most or all of the scape as skip cycle rock.




Post pics so we can see ratios thanks for posting


blended runs are legit for us, they’re largely still skip cycle events meaning that chunk will carry more than the starting bioload you have planned.

 

[fenderchamp]

there is only one piece of rock in the tank.
It's a 3lb piece of rock. the tank is 3.5 gallons.

I put the pellet in, just to watch the crabs eat.

 

[brandon429]

Perfection, that is a skip cycle setup if the rock has real coralline and came from a tank at the store, it’s the only kind of rock I’ve used. Whether or not you add more surface area in the back, as sand, or hob filter won’t make the tank carry more fish than it will right now. Disease controls will control fish populations not free ammonia that is sealed up.

it is not necessary to test or verify this rock when we bring it home, solely because we know it’s origin and can plainly see the living attachments when inspecting in person. That is a perfect example for our post thanks tons. It doesn’t matter if you add more inert surfaces awaiting to take on more bad, that’s a huge chunk it handles all filtration for the tank permanently.

we always do a full water change when cloudy, since its only three gallons I’d do one before beginning and feed lightly, feed laying wasted will cause clouding. Not too many fish are ok for that tank, it should be for corals and inverts.

 

[blasterman]

Here’s a three year unfed fallow test

post 188

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/page-10

we must discuss test misreads, when does that become possible for Chris- if his posts are real...

If we don’t see the dated paper pic next to an updated test from him I bet he’s just grabbing random pics off the web.

all cycle troubleshoots must first establish if the test kits are known to read right or not, we have skipped that with Chris’ ammonia claims. When dealing with kits accepted known to misread we have to use alternate refereeing for the cycle call.


We establish here that no cycle becomes undone once its set. Live rocks can transfer tanks infinitely without loss of cycle.

With all due respect I totally disagree on the last point.

Bacteria need food, otherwise we could dump LR on Mars and they would terraform the surface. I've tested the amount of ammonia required to maintain LR in fishless tanks and its pretty significant. If I pull the ammonia source it doesn't take that long for that bio system to become unstable and go through its various ugly stages if fish are re added.

There is no shortcut to tank cycling. You either have an established bio system or not. Also, the initial nitrogen cycle bacteria are quick to establish and the process linear. If you drop a heavy object it falls to the floor. If you add ammonia to a fish tank it will cycle.

Its the post cycle biology that presents 99% of tank difficulties while initial cycling threads generate more pointless forum bantering. Anybody that much in a hurry is likely to fail miserably at 6 months because there's no Amazon.com shortcut to post cycle stability and nutrient equilibrium. Only adding mature, LR from the beginning helps, and only to a certain degree.

In theory we could culture artifical LR or sand in systems with high source ammonia and hence high nitrate levels to maximize highly competitive bacteria. Be worth some testing at least.

 

[brandon429]

They had feed, all live rock is packed in organics.

and post-cycle, even dry rocks have beginning bioslicks that trap and retain feed and provide insulation.

and, we can’t deny the passed oxidation test it wasn’t a testimony-only situation.


Dandelion has a two year one of these on nano-reef.com this isn’t the only one.

reasons I have to clean my blinds every month= aerial feed addition to any open topped tank. This was kept in a garage, so accelerate that mode x9

 

[brandon429]

So until we get a directly opposite proof test link, or a scholar link on reef cycle starvation dynamics not written by a bottle bac affiliate, we continue on the assumption that no cycle ever starves back to being uncycled. Our homes are not feed-free sterile zones.

the impact here is that when buying live rock with obvious attached growths from tanks marked live rock and the other rocks have growths, it’s all cycled.

 

[brandon429]

Another
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/pico-time.804968/

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Brandon I have a situation

Starting up a 2.5G Dwarf Seahorse tank and when my girlfriend asked if my tank would be ready by then I laughed at the mentality I had toward cycling 2 years ago. Last night I pulled some established live rock from my sump, some culpurea and rinsed some leftover sand I had from a while back. After reading up I see they are highly susceptible to stings and decided to have a backup plan. Broke it back down and but some dry rock in a bucket with 1.5 ppm ammonia and a couple a couple cap fulls of a variety of bottled bacteria I have collecting dust in my storage cabinets...

If I don't see anything on the LR except for coralline should I give it a light scrub so I can maintain my skip cycle? The dry rock and bacteria (UGH) should seed in time then 100% WC on friday but would like something more established.

 

[brandon429]

I once had that in mind

and by luck, in eight mins later I’m chatting with ocean riders in HI Peter, the seahorse master. He says it will work but hydroids will kill the stock not long after, your sole nemesis is that hydroids so small we dont see them kills ponies

u must bring up inert scapes that way you exclude droids

#of people who thought it would still work for them, thousands. He assures me it won’t work so I never did. This is specific to h. zosterae perhaps not all breeds.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

I believe that is what I am getting. Could I have contaminated the sand by setting up a skip cycle so hastily? I rinsed it a few time with RO after I took the rock out but I imagine it should be sterile enough. Shame that I can’t use the macro I have unless I can sterilize that too

 

[brandon429]

His claim was that all Reef material had to be excluded, it has to be cycled inert surfaces

i wouldn’t think bagged sand can bring them in, only rocks, snails from a reef, corals, any hardscape

 

[brandon429]

At work I’ll search out that thread it was really neat, probably 2005 ish lol long time ago