A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

[brandon429]

right now you're googling failed cycle to retro find that example, hoping its from this year at least, and seeing still only more of my diatribe, is that funny or not





types of cycles:

-dry rock with bottle bac and wait for params to line up, add fish when api permits

dry rock and bottle bac with fish, no wait

-shipped live rock from the ocean that sometimes can require curing, depending on shipping, and often doesnt as pointed out by MNfish.

-our golden thread here, total skip cycle live rock: cannot ever be starved of its bac when kept in an aquarium, needs no inoculation to get ready, requires no feeding to keep its bacteria alive (inherent feed stores are permanently set within the rock by association) we have the only type that shows up ready, instantly, all the time without variation. moving pet store rocks to home is never going to be lethal, and you can't find any examples where it was even though you're on page fifteen google results trying to find one.


of the cycle options, our live rock skip cycles are the safest method for determining an exact start date because they're testless...no test gives us permission to reef with already cured live rocks, our eyes give us that permission in what we can visually see and verify as attachments on that rock.

even with fish + bottle bac cycles, some bottle bac can be killed during shipping so a test is prudent to at least know if the bottle chosen was active.


but regarding skip cycle rocks, we can literally see they're cycled. That's not ever been written in a cycling manual, visually-verified cycle completion, so we make that rule here and use post logging to stamp it in place ten years before someone agrees to lightly review it in a reef book.

 

[brandon429]

also true

we need any pertinent thread to tell us we do NOT add cycling bac to these types of rocks, because the bottle bac sellers will not say that. They literally want you believing the product is needed now and as reinforcements in the future, its not.


our thread uses # of tanks and years of patterns on file to prove it.

of the 4 or so types of reef cycles, two types never need bottle bac added and we are one of those types.



There is no book or magazine article on cycling that distinguishes which ones get the bottle bac, and which don't. we make that distinction here.

 

[ahsokat501]

Brandon. The bioload in this tank is so small, there is no need to add 'extra bacteria'. Second, I'm not sure why you think this is such a miracle. Buying 'live sand' is probably more expensive than buying 'dead sand' and adding bacteria. Either way - the 'aquarium industry' is getting people to spend money. Let me know when someone adds a full cadre of fish to a 90 gallon tank - in a 'skip cycle' (as compared to 3-4 small fish).

BTW - I completely agree that many of the 'cycling' methods focus on 'adding stuff'. But IMHO adding 'live rock' and 'live sand' is as expensive or more than adding bacteria and 'dead rock'.

What I think is the MOST interesting thing here is the OP is 'breaking the rules' more by adding a Mandarin (to a tank that isn't 20 years old), as well as corals quickly. It will be very interesting to see how the fish and corals do (to me). I have long said the idea that to keep coral you need a several months old tank is probably false.

I hear you. In all transparency I am pretty proud of myself but also very very new here. To your point about the bio load definitely wanted to keep it small because of my lack of experience. I’ll let you know how the Mandarins do...I thought it was really interesting reading about the rules there too. Do you think it comes more from people not wanting to spend money on the copepods? Or that a refugium is a relatively new thing and historically they haven’t done well on frozen foods?
Everyone (coral included) still seems super happy. Salinity went a bit high last night and couple of the corals closed. Added fresh water and they opened right back up. But so far that’s been about it. Will keep y’all updated if you’re interested! Here’s the adult mandarin from tonight!

 

[MnFish1]

I think this is the weirdest bit to me personally. The premise of this entire thread is we have all been brainwashed by "Big Bac" into buying bacteria in a bottle when the bac in a bottle is multiple times cheaper than filling the tank with live (and I mean like airshipped) rock.

The "take it slow method" is out of an abundance of caution out of respect to the livestock to avoiding needless suffering and death. For every exception to the rule where it just works out there are hundreds, literally hundreds of threads on this forum of the cycle going sideways and killing livestock.

If the examples such as "trade show tank look amazing and they were only just set up." can still have holes poked in it. Little something like this:

-Stable tank is grow out for show.
-Tank is packed. Coral and fish well cared for ie heated and aerated coolers.
-Shipped in person under care of same skilled reefkeepers.
-Set up at show. Large water change basically required due to moving everything.
-48ish hours at show. Basic math here. Even bio filter is horrible damaged it is not likely to be able to foul the water in 2 days.
-Tear down, same attention to the needs of the animals.
-Reset up at home. Large water change basically required due to moving everything.
-Mature filter and most of the equipment brought back online and you are still likely going to get small cycle.

The tank at the trade show basically coasted on the original stability of the system and the massive water changes back to back to manage.

This theory is just bad science cherry picking examples to curve fit.

I agree with somethings you say, but overall, I personally disagree.

1. There is plenty of evidence that people have upgraded their tanks, for example by just taking all of the stuff (filter, rock, sand, fish, coral, etc) from one tank and adding it to a bigger tank. I've done it several times.

2. Forget trade shows then. How do LFS open stores - that handle thousands of gallons of fish. Do they cycle each tank for weeks? (No, they don't)

3. I think your comments about the number of threads on 'here' that say they failed is skewed 'scientifically'. Of course, there are going to be many more people posting problems on a forum to get advice, as compared to those that post to say 'wow, I just set up a tank and it went great'. I personally have set up multiple tanks using fish, bottled bacteria and sometimes dead rock. I have never added ammonia. I have never tested ammonia, I have never lost a fish transferring from an old tank to a new tank with bacteria only.

4. This idea that this is 'bad science' cherry picking seems kind of odd as well. After all - there is lots of science behind Fritz and Dr. Tim's methods. There is no magic here. If the bacteria are in the tank, and living, they will process ammonia. That IS science, and common sense. IMHO. As a microbiologist, I know a small bit about it. But - most is this is my opinion so - I'm not trying to debate with you. I do not think cycling with bacteria in a bottle and fish is 'cruel, inhumane, or unscientific'. I also have read HUNDREDS of people trying to use Dr. Tims and getting caught up with ammonia, stalled cycles, etc etc etc. With no fish involved.

 

[brandon429]

Reef Shows are Back Baby! Video Tour of Reefapalooza Orlando | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

ReefStock 2020 was the last big reef aquarium event before our social world was turned upside down so it was incredibly fitting that social guidelines for vaccinated Americans were revised right…

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extremely sharp hall of skip cycle reefs. Many are just frag tanks, some are full skip cycle live rock transfers we can see


the classic claim here is that the insta cycles don’t have a long life span, meaning they’ll barely last through the event

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@Yevoc

wheres my example link for the failed cycle


the heart and soul of our thread is trust

the reason we don’t take it slow on all cycles is because some are instantly ready, like when rocks that are wet with coralline on them are moved to new places.
where you’d take it slow is the unassisted cycle, where we add water rocks and sand and just wait.

we advocate trusting where you can plainly see rocks are cycled and in that resolve we are able to execute all kinds of tank moves and setups with zero loss. We control our expenditures and animals more efficiently if we know what to trust and what to buy as reinforcements

all the reefs we see above are actually double and triple skip cycle setups, meaning unsold animals aren’t just tossed they’re put into coolers, tanks drained, rocks put in wet newspaper or just bagged wo water, then it’s all moved back to their homes or businesses


there is no degree of harm that comes from a skip cycle tank transfer, as many times as we want to run them. Sellers know this, depend on it, trust it, run businesses and conventions off it, and forum cyclers take on the polar opposite role. A gradient is created and cash transfers, simple as that.


the baddest skip cycle large tank I know is being updated

the dollar amount of corals in this set up is a lot of dollars

Nano Build - Octo High End SPS Skip Cycle Build....

Would you be able to send me the file? I'll dm you my email? Sure if I can figure out how to do it. I started at 65% intensity and now Im at 68%. I'll move it up 1% every 3 months

www.reef2reef.com

New science for this era as rehashed from prior eras we have forgotten about is not always bad science.

 

[brandon429]

@Yevoc are you still google searching for my sole example

Fishless Cycling Question w/Photos

Hello fellow reefers, I am starting a nano reef aquarium and this is the first time I have heard of fishless Cycle...I started the process almost two weeks ago with the Dr. Tim's instructions...that for some reason just didn't work for me; Ammoniaand Nitrate were literallyoff the charts...I...

www.reef2reef.com

lfs sells bottle bac to a buyer along with total skip cycle live rock = why this thread exists, and what we study here.

another, lfs sells bottle bac to someone who can’t make use of it, was just a filler purchase

Am I doing things correct

I just started reefing i set my first saltwater tank up about a week ago its a 24g lifeguard aio with 15 pounds of live rock with live sand a fluval water flow maker rated for a 440 gph and my temp is running between 77 and 78, it has plastic floating bio balls and the hard sinking porous bio...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

Jj

Seeing how hard it is to find a truly stalled cycle circles back to the importance of fish disease preps in cycling vs concern the filter will be prevented by something we didn't do exactly right

We want our hobby to equate being *wet* with being all the details required for someone to keep and hold a cycle indefinitely. It's not the feed, the dosing, the purchases, the params, the nitrite, it's about being wet and knowing that means cycle=locked.

Month old tank, no nitate, no nitrite?

Hello, new heare , new 75g tank 20lb live sand 20lb dry sand, 40lb dry rock, 10lb live seeded rock from lfs, all 75g supposedly ocean water from petco, the box kind. Two clowns, two goby, bonded pair, test every week for everything 0's across the board everytime. Slight diatombloom across...

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Sometimes folks stumble upon skip cycling without even planning. Ten pounds of live rock alone will run a massive bioload if it's in a high flow zone/ in the display.

 

[LRT]

Set up 80 gallon frag on total 110-120 gallon system yesterday. Added about 40lbs of my gulf rock ive been Manicuring for last year and half.
Fed half cube of frozen to various snails and hermits that hitchiked over.
Seneye showed a bump in ammonia from .001 to .006 (according to seneye graph not harmful) within first cpl hours but back down to .001 within few hours. Total time about 5 hours.
I'll be filling tank with livestock today and report back.

 

[brandon429]

LRT thats incredibly helpful info. The seneye seems trimmed, accurate, you’re directly within the safe range all reef tanks on tuned seneye report along with similar bumps in feeding and the rebound. Without animals in the tank like fish moving up from .001 may not happen for a while. it’s amazing to see these little similarities all reefs have, that we did not formerly know, become a pattern in collection posts.

 

[dkeller22]

I set my system back up about 4 months ago with my old Fiji live rock that had been dead and dry for a decade, some Fritz 9 and ammonium chloride from Dr. Tim's. The ammonia badge went back to safe in about 24 hours. The only fish I had was still in QT so he didn't go in for a few weeks, but he's been fine ever since. I only tested for Nitrates because once they show up the rest is done or is low enough to not matter.

The fish is a 3" Coral Beauty and really liking having a 6 foot tank all to himself while the next batch is in QT.

 

[LRT]

LRT thats incredibly helpful info. The seneye seems trimmed, accurate, you’re directly within the safe range all reef tanks on tuned seneye report along with similar bumps in feeding and the rebound. Without animals in the tank like fish moving up from .001 may not happen for a while. it’s amazing to see these little similarities all reefs have, that we did not formerly know, become a pattern in collection posts.

I'll be moving a bunch of tiles and maybe a little more rock today. As well as putting a small pair of clowns and cpl smaller tangs in.
I am curious what ammonia is going to do if anything. Fish are currently eating about a cube a day and 2x2 square of nori so not much bump in food being added.
If trend stays solid and everything tracks out I'll have 100 shrooms or more in system by 24 hr mark

I will add ive done this plenty of times on much smaller scale though.

 

[dkeller22]

Isn't the insta-tank theory the same theory we use in QT tanks? Basic tank with some cured media from the display, add an ammonia badge and fish. The cycle never really happens because the bacteria were already there from the media in the display tank.

 

[LRT]

I would say essentially yes. I typically set up 10 gallon to house new corals same exact way. A little rock, new water. Same results. This is all pretty much standard procedure at reef shows and most lfs on daily/weekly basis.

I think the whole point of this thread is to show that you can skip cycling and everything that goes with it if you do it right. You dont need bottle bac with rock plucked from ocean.
In fact I seen a post here in last cpl weeks on a bio test from a tank that was 5 yrs old, started with bottle bac and tested results came back with least amount of bacteria recorded.

 

[MnFish1]

I would say essentially yes. I typically set up 10 gallon to house new corals same exact way. A little rock, new water. Same results. This is all pretty much standard procedure at reef shows and most lfs on daily/weekly basis.

I think the whole point of this thread is to show that you can skip cycling and everything that goes with it if you do it right. You dont need bottle bac with rock plucked from ocean.
In fact I seen a post here in last cpl weeks on a bio test from a tank that was 5 yrs old, started with bottle bac and tested results came back with least amount of bacteria recorded.

I agree, but I do not need rock 'plucked from the ocean'. You need rock thats colonized with bacteria (or anything else thats colonized with bacteria). For example - in my tank which was 99% dry rock at startup, had one of the highest bacterial diversities ever seen when a sample was taken from rock itself - as well as when the water sampled was blown over the rock.

 

[brandon429]

Fantastic new reef here for our unique type of cycle collection

Cycle done or delayed?

Hey all! I have a 13.5 EVO tank. It is going on 7 days old now. I have tested the water and specific gravity every day. Before getting into the specs, let me tell you what is in there: Livestock: Caribbean Live Sand Roughly 10 lbs of aquacultured live rock (red algae and bristle worms living...

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I enjoy watching patterns unfold for science that is done in unconnected homes and locations


the connection is wet high surface area rock that has been underwater at least as long as a cycle chart shows


we are dealing with the strongest pattern in reefing. I dont care where someone is at on the planet, if you’re moving live rock from one tank to another it always skip cycles.



set up in different homes countries and cities and using rock that absolutely doesn’t come from the same location


every reef tank here had the same exact ethical start date. The day you set it up it could carry as many fish as if you waited to day 3000, your wet surface area was maxed on bac long before you transferred it in


there are no mini cycles there are no brief delays in ammonia control when moving rocks from one water table to another, the minor shifts api may show can be best studied in the ten thousand posted matured reefs that also show .25

whatever is causing that for them is happening in your worst-case skip cycle. That above is api 100% yellow we got only lucky there

 

[zachSalty]

I moved live rock and my cycle appears to have skipped and I had live sand as well. Everything is doing great!

 

[brandon429]

very nice start, that banded shrimp wouldn’t tolerate instability after the move over, plus it’s super clean water

 

[daftbeni]

I also successfully skip cycled when I upgraded from a 40g to a 80g. Used live sand and brought of my rock. Didn’t have any problems.

 

[brandon429]

pics saved the day

EMERGENCY - Cycling stage problem. Please help!

Hi! I’ve started a saltwater tank on 14th August and I have some strage problems with it. I’ve added 25kg of live rock and 20 kg of live sand and some nitrifying bacteria. I didn’t added any amonnia source after that because I thinked that some of the organic stuff on those rock will break down...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

My day 4 test results

Aquarium testing Day 4 Ammonia. 25ppm Nitrate 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm PH 8.0

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look at that example team. Mislead by a test kit, righted with a single pic.