About to Quit

[Uncle99]

Just wanted to give an update since it’s been a few weeks:

My display is still unable to support much more than invert/fish life. I tested for stray voltage and found nothing significant, around 3ish volts total with everything running.

I turned down my heater and reinstalled my dual cooling fan over my sump. Florida is just hot. Tank usually runs between 78 and 80.2F even with the fan running. It’s just going to have to be what’s it’s going to be, I suppose.

I also finally found some time to run simultaneous parameter tests on my display and my coral QT. Results:

Nitrate
QT: 8.00ppm
Display: 12.3ppm

Phosphate
QT: 0.27ppm
Display: 0.13ppm

Alkalinity
QT: 7.2dKH
Display: 6.9dKH

pH
QT: 7.78
Display: 7.96

I am considering skipping the water change on my display today since the nutrients really aren’t that high. I’m not sure.

I still don’t have much algae growing in the tank, nothing more than the same sprinkling that showed up when I added the live rock. My coral QT however, needs glass scraping every couple of days. I haven’t had to clean the glass of my display a single time.

I have a nagging feeling that the swollen MarinePure cubes in my sump are to blame for all of this, as @Weasel1960 brought back to my attention. I have an ATI water test kit coming, so hopefully it will arrive this week so I can send it right back out and get some definitive results. I’ll tell you what, I am so sick of staring at a bare bones tank, I can’t even express my frustration.

In other news, neither my Randall’s goby nor my assessor came in last weekend, so I have two Gladiator Clowns and a 6 Lime Wrasse in quarantine instead.

I tried adding a Mexican Turbo to my display to try and help with the little bit of GHA in there, but it died almost immediately upon introduction, as did its predecessor.

Ugh.

Well, hopefully the water analysis will shed some light.... in the mean time, I guess I’ll just keep on keeping on.

Good update.
When reviewing the thread, your system appears to be only 3-4 months old. Parameters are fine with exception of Alk, personally I run 10, so 2 points on either side for safety, but at least 8. Since running a few years on 10, I seem to have zero algae and clean sand without stirring or vacuuming.

Since fish and inverts live, then it’s just corals that don’t do well.
Just because QT does great, doesn’t necessarily mean DT is the same.

In every system I’ve worked, I need to maintain those parameters with as little of flux as possible for somewhere around 3 continuous months before I start even with a softy.

When those 3 consecutive months turn into 6, I add the LPS and SPS, at 1 year, Acros are added to the higher rockwork.

I wonder if the issue is just “time”.

 

[JCM]

I replied to a similar post earlier, I'll add my input here as well. First I admire your dedication, you're clearly putting in the effort.

I dealt with a similar problem in a previous tank. Fish/inverts did great, but corals would die and algae didn't grow. That tank was setup for 5 years and even at the end it still looked sterile.

Looking back, I suspect it was bad rock and a lack of diversity leading to my issues. I had had successful reef tanks before that one, and have had successful tanks since. The difference was that was the only tank I started with 100% dry rock. It cycled in the sense that it had nitrifying bacteria, but it was lacking something.

I should've yanked the rock and replaced it but I grew disheartened and quit the hobby for a few years.

I'm not saying that's definitely your issue, but it certainly resembles my experience. I bet if you pulled all your rock and replaced with Gulf/KP/TBS rock your problems would disappear.

Best of luck with it.

 

[PatrickStarfish]

I may be one of the old school, old fashioned reef keeper, I only started this hobby September last year, I don't run a skimmer, nor any fancy set up, 2 tanks, 1 30 gal, another 50gal IOS system. I learn from my LFS that before all these gadgets came out, people had successful tanks with barest tests. I was taught to get salinity, ph AND temperature correct, let the tank sit in 2 weeks without corals or fish and let the live rocks work its magic. I honestly don't know anything about nitrogen cycle etc etc, but my bedroom A/C is running almost 24/7 giving me water temperature 77-80°. I've added corals and fishes in, lost only 1 or 2 fishes, maybe 2 to 3 corals out of a dozen. Bottom line, I believe in UV, Carbon AND most importantly, coral food. These will drastically reduce bacteria n toxins that might harm your precious corals. Maybe try UV & Carbon and see what comes out of it Goodluck! (pictured is my 4 month old, 30gal running 22watts UV and I've yet to do any water changes, but top up 500cc daily due to evaporation)

 

[Apollo7235]

Will be interesting to see if the ICP shows anything. I replied in the other thread but will add it here also. I find snails particularly sensitive to changes from the LFS. I always check the salinity in the bag first and acclimate slowly. Turbo's I have the worst luck with too. Even healthy ones that are stuck to the glass at the LFS, some don't make it for whatever reason.

On a side note, you might consider bumping up your Alk, 6.9-7.2 is a bit on the low side. Many keep theirs around 8ish.. it allows from some downside swing because your alk could be swinging .3 or more during the day as pH swings throughout the day/night cycle. Higher alk will help keep the pH more stable during the day too.

Well crap, for some reason I guess I missed that response.

This is actually the only time I didn’t drop acclimate an invert. For some reason, I remembered some of the folks on here saying they just drop them into their tanks but that could certainly be part of why the poor little guys died on me.

As somewhat of a control, I added one to my coral/invert QT without any kind of acclimation, I brought them both home together from the same tank at the LFS, and it is doing fantastic, a mean algae eating machine.

I have noticed that my alkalinity has always been low. I have some kalkwasser that I suppose I should start dosing. I’m probably going to do the ATO method for my display and I guess I’ll just have to mix it into my water change buckets for my two QT’s, unless it’s unnecessary for me to bother with the QT’s.

I find it very annoying that Tropic Marin Pro Reef mixes at such a low pH and alkalinity at 1.025sg.

 

[Apollo7235]

I replied to a similar post earlier, I'll add my input here as well. First I admire your dedication, you're clearly putting in the effort.

I dealt with a similar problem in a previous tank. Fish/inverts did great, but corals would die and algae didn't grow. That tank was setup for 5 years and even at the end it still looked sterile.

Looking back, I suspect it was bad rock and a lack of diversity leading to my issues. I had had successful reef tanks before that one, and have had successful tanks since. The difference was that was the only tank I started with 100% dry rock. It cycled in the sense that it had nitrifying bacteria, but it was lacking something.

I should've yanked the rock and replaced it but I grew disheartened and quit the hobby for a few years.

I'm not saying that's definitely your issue, but it certainly resembles my experience. I bet if you pulled all your rock and replaced with Gulf/KP/TBS rock your problems would disappear.

Best of luck with it.

I actually told my husband the exact same thing last night! Haha, I wish I would have just stayed with live rock. I will never make that mistake again.

I did add a 6 pound live rock to my display a few weeks ago. It helped in the sense that shortly after I had a new sprinkling of algae, but that’s seriously it. Nothing else has happened and no more algae has grown.

At this point, I am actually hoping that the ICP shows something out of whack just so I can fix it and move on!

 

[Apollo7235]

I may be one of the old school, old fashioned reef keeper, I only started this hobby September last year, I don't run a skimmer, nor any fancy set up, 2 tanks, 1 30 gal, another 50gal IOS system. I learn from my LFS that before all these gadgets came out, people had successful tanks with barest tests. I was taught to get salinity, ph AND temperature correct, let the tank sit in 2 weeks without corals or fish and let the live rocks work its magic. I honestly don't know anything about nitrogen cycle etc etc, but my bedroom A/C is running almost 24/7 giving me water temperature 77-80°. I've added corals and fishes in, lost only 1 or 2 fishes, maybe 2 to 3 corals out of a dozen. Bottom line, I believe in UV, Carbon AND most importantly, coral food. These will drastically reduce bacteria n toxins that might harm your precious corals. Maybe try UV & Carbon and see what comes out of it Goodluck! (pictured is my 4 month old, 30gal running 22watts UV and I've yet to do any water changes, but top up 500cc daily due to evaporation)

Unfortunately, I made the mistake of starting my tank with 100% dry rock.

Lesson well learned. Nice tank!

 

[reefinatl]

Just wanted to give an update since it’s been a few weeks:

My display is still unable to support much more than invert/fish life. I tested for stray voltage and found nothing significant, around 3ish volts total with everything running.

I turned down my heater and reinstalled my dual cooling fan over my sump. Florida is just hot. Tank usually runs between 78 and 80.2F even with the fan running. It’s just going to have to be what’s it’s going to be, I suppose.

I also finally found some time to run simultaneous parameter tests on my display and my coral QT. Results:

Nitrate
QT: 8.00ppm
Display: 12.3ppm

Phosphate
QT: 0.27ppm
Display: 0.13ppm

Alkalinity
QT: 7.2dKH
Display: 6.9dKH

pH
QT: 7.78
Display: 7.96

I am considering skipping the water change on my display today since the nutrients really aren’t that high. I’m not sure.

I still don’t have much algae growing in the tank, nothing more than the same sprinkling that showed up when I added the live rock. My coral QT however, needs glass scraping every couple of days. I haven’t had to clean the glass of my display a single time.

I have a nagging feeling that the swollen MarinePure cubes in my sump are to blame for all of this, as @Weasel1960 brought back to my attention. I have an ATI water test kit coming, so hopefully it will arrive this week so I can send it right back out and get some definitive results. I’ll tell you what, I am so sick of staring at a bare bones tank, I can’t even express my frustration.

In other news, neither my Randall’s goby nor my assessor came in last weekend, so I have two Gladiator Clowns and a 6 Lime Wrasse in quarantine instead.

I tried adding a Mexican Turbo to my display to try and help with the little bit of GHA in there, but it died almost immediately upon introduction, as did its predecessor.

Ugh.

Well, hopefully the water analysis will shed some light.... in the mean time, I guess I’ll just keep on keeping on.

Did you ever get a par meter for the DT?

 

[JCM]

I actually told my husband the exact same thing last night! Haha, I wish I would have just stayed with live rock. I will never make that mistake again.

I did add a 6 pound live rock to my display a few weeks ago. It helped in the sense that shortly after I had a new sprinkling of algae, but that’s seriously it. Nothing else has happened and no more algae has grown.

At this point, I am actually hoping that the ICP shows something out of whack just so I can fix it and move on!

That tank was started around 2008 when using all dry rock was becoming the rage to "avoid unwanted pests". That was probably the worst idea this hobby has ever had.

Hopefully your test shows the problem. It's possible your rock is leaching something you can't test for.

 

[Saberfal]

Just here to add my 2 cents.

I also have a new tank up and running and have encountered the strangest losses myself.

All my previous tanks were done with live rock.

On my 120g I only used dry rock. It's frustrating in that the rock just takes a long time to get to where it needs to be.


I'm not sure exactly what ends up being the missing key here.

I can say that you can try some of the simplest corals and shouldn't have issues. Maybe some zoas and gsp (on its on rock).

Just something that can handle a new tank going through a very long cycle (more like culture of the dry rock)

My first real reef tank was a 65g and ended up being the nicest tank I've ever had.
I didn't do water changes. I didn't have an ato.
I topped off the tank with well water when the return started to spit bubbles. I never dosed or added anything other than a cube of food everyday. (Do not do this! But maybe relax a little and let it settle out for another month and try again!)

There's a ton of information and a thousand ways to run a reef. Sometimes we just need to stand back and let things happen.

It's all part of the hobby, both the successes and the failures. That's what makes it feel so good when it finally matures.

 

[Apollo7235]

Good update.
When reviewing the thread, your system appears to be only 3-4 months old. Parameters are fine with exception of Alk, personally I run 10, so 2 points on either side for safety, but at least 8. Since running a few years on 10, I seem to have zero algae and clean sand without stirring or vacuuming.

Since fish and inverts live, then it’s just corals that don’t do well.
Just because QT does great, doesn’t necessarily mean DT is the same.

In every system I’ve worked, I need to maintain those parameters with as little of flux as possible for somewhere around 3 continuous months before I start even with a softy.

When those 3 consecutive months turn into 6, I add the LPS and SPS, at 1 year, Acros are added to the higher rockwork.

I wonder if the issue is just “time”.

I would be willing to agree with you if I wasn’t able to keep thriving corals in tanks less than a month old... it’s just weird that I’ve shared water and everything else between the tanks, yet the original tank kills any corals I put in it....

 

[Shirak]

I would be willing to agree with you if I wasn’t able to keep thriving corals in tanks less than a month old... it’s just weird that I’ve shared water and everything else between the tanks, yet the original tank kills any corals I put in it....

Based on your previous posts the only thing that really strikes me as being potentially significantly different is the lighting. Even with the NPS corals it might be affecting them? The AI have a much wider range of diodes including UV.

I am not in the camp of something from the rock as I think it would be affecting the other tank inhabitants also. But it's just a guess!

I agree with the Tropic Marin Pro salt. I switched salt because I like to run around 9dkh

 

[PatrickStarfish]

Unfortunately, I made the mistake of starting my tank with 100% dry rock.

Lesson well learned. Nice tank!

One point noteworthy of this old school style, LFS told me me to use bed of fine crushed corals instead of bare bottom or sand. This will go a long way to help in maintaining PH, I took his advice and seems to work, I've never tested for ph or dkh etc... just half teaspoon of baking soda a month to my 30gal. I am really a newbie so I went along with his advice.

 

[Rmckoy]

But is one system either older in weeks, or by some other means being made more stable than the other?

Does one system have a greater surface area in terms of rock and or Marine Pure, and is so, which one.

Compare also, the daily flux between each parameter to ensure both systems are stable.

When waters and lighting are the same, the corals, to a large degree should react the same.

As pointed out above, the only other things is metal or electric contamination.

Hope you get that worked out.

If I remember correct . The only difference was tank age and lighting .

 

[Rmckoy]

One point noteworthy of this old school style, LFS told me me to use bed of fine crushed corals instead of bare bottom or sand. This will go a long way to help in maintaining PH, I took his advice and seems to work, I've never tested for ph or dkh etc... just half teaspoon of baking soda a month to my 30gal. I am really a newbie so I went along with his advice.

Why add baking soda if you don’t test dkh ?

sounds like terrible advice not knowing if the system required alkalinity boost or not just to dose .

 

[Pistondog]

I pulled my marine pure after icp showed aluminum off the charts. Many have success with marinepure, I replaced it with more live rock. Icp will show any form of the element, even inert ones.

 

[PatrickStarfish]

Why add baking soda if you don’t test dkh ?

sounds like terrible advice not knowing if the system required alkalinity boost or not just to dose .

Unfortunately I just follow his advice, he's been running his store for almost 40 years.. I just followed his advice maybe because I am replenish fresh tap water daily? to the tune of 500cc? I really have no idea.. but so far, it seems to be fine.. my trachys inflate daily like to the point of being rounded... sign of happy water he says

 

[Rmckoy]

Unfortunately I just follow his advice, he's been running his store for almost 40 years.. I just followed his advice maybe because I am replenish fresh tap water daily? to the tune of 500cc? I really have no idea.. but so far, it seems to be fine.. my trachys inflate daily like to the point of being rounded... sign of happy water he says

If it works ...

Tap water and no testing .
Risky .. but glad it works for you

 

[PatrickStarfish]

If it works ...

Tap water and no testing .
Risky .. but glad it works for you

yes I do believe tap water quality varies country to country, here in Singapore, we are lucky to hv very strict water quality running off our taps with a pH neutral reading. we can drink water off the tap. And I hv this saying, IF I have to be a slave to a hobby, then, the money is better spent on a nice vacation instead

 

[Rmckoy]

yes I do believe tap water quality varies country to country, here in Singapore, we are lucky to hv very strict water quality running off our taps with a pH neutral reading. we can drink water off the tap. And I hv this saying, IF I have to be a slave to a hobby, then, the money is better spent on a nice vacation instead

I agree .
Once covid is finished ,
A vacation is needed

 

[Apollo7235]

Did you ever get a par meter for the DT?

No, I didn’t. :confused:

I had actually moved that item to the bottom of my list considering 4 5 of the corals that began to die on me during the transfer are NPS.