Advice on recent RTN

[emart805]

Thanks for your input Pod_01, not trying to diminish your advice, it just seems like others may disagree with an implication of a mystical maturity clock. As an aside, I've successfully kept SPS in the past, albeit it's been about 15 years. I never had the issue I'm having now. Honestly, I'm not in disagreement about having a mature tank; the problem is that we haven't defined what elements are keeping my current circumstances from achieving SPS sustainability. It's OK if you we know how to fix the issue based on the water tests and parameters, but hopefully someone else can help or at least can propose a game plan. Even some other troubleshooting tips, just at a loss here.

In my experience "tank maturity" simply means the right conditions. I just want to know what's missing/in excess that would actually cause the issues I'm having and how to fix them. Some of the low element levels, iodine for example, don't seem to be not enough to cause STN/RTN according to some people. On the other hand the nitrate number is all over the map on the forums, some say low some say more, and it seems like I'm still in the safe zone. As a matter of fact, I was keeping this number in the single digits for a while, but decided to increase feeding based on various sources and my corals losing tissue.

Acknowledge your recommendation for trace elements, and I'm concerned because TM A K contains some of the elements currently elevated in my tank (vanadium and strontium for example), thank you though!

 

[Pod_01]

As an aside, I've successfully kept SPS in the past, albeit it's been about 15 years. I never had the issue I'm having now.

I promise this is the last comment/ question.

Out of curiosity your old system that was successfully growing SPS, what did you do differently vs. this system?

My hunch is the following:
Apex,

- Coralife Turbo-Twist UV Fish Tank Sterilizer 6X, Up to 250 Gallons
- PaxBellum N24

Especially this:

- about 75lbs marco dry rock (starting to encrust)

Also 15 years ago did you know your exact trace elements composition?

The best advice that I received when using dry rock. Keep adding easy to grow corals or get full colonies from local reefers that are getting out of hobby. As these corals thrive and the system is stable replace them with what you actually want.
Up to that point I had nice bucket of dead SPS frags.

 

[Troylee]

What sps are you having problems with? Maricultured colonies or aquacultured frags? Try some old classics like Ora and see what happens… something in your biome isn’t correct or a bacteria in your tank I’d guess.. both come with time like mentioned above..

 

[emart805]

I promise this is the last comment/ question.

Out of curiosity your old system that was successfully growing SPS, what did you do differently vs. this system?

My hunch is the following:
Apex,

Especially this:

Also 15 years ago did you know your exact trace elements composition?

The best advice that I received when using dry rock. Keep adding easy to grow corals or get full colonies from local reefers that are getting out of hobby. As these corals thrive and the system is stable replace them with what you actually want.
Up to that point I had nice bucket of dead SPS frags.

No worries with the questions, I really appreciate the diagnosis attempts!

1. Out of curiosity your old system that was successfully growing SPS, what did you do differently vs. this system? Almost everything, 15 years ago I didn't have access to the automation software, live rock was readily available and relative to today inexpensive, but it's probably easier to link my old tank build, realizing now it's been 17 years : https://forums.reefcentral.com/threads/new-112g-cube-36x36x20-pic-intense-journal.369979/

2. Also 15 years ago did you know your exact trace elements composition? Nope! Only measured the major things like:

Temp-78-79F
pH-8.2 (seachem)
SG-35ppm (hydrometer)
Calcium-435 (pinpoint)
Ammonia-.0 (AP)
Nitrite-0 (AP)
Nitrate-<5 (AP)
PO4-0
I-.04
Silica-<1
Alk-4 meq/L
Mg-1440

3. The best advice that I received when using dry rock. Keep adding easy to grow corals or get full colonies from local reefers that are getting out of hobby. As these corals thrive and the system is stable replace them with what you actually want. Up to that point I had nice bucket of dead SPS frags.

Honestly leaning in this direction, I never dealt with dry rock before, but I wanted to avoid some of the early issues I had with live rock the first go around. It seems like I just replaced it with a different set of issues... My gut is saying I need to buy some live sand/rock from an established system to add a ton of bio diversity, but I'm scared of all the bad stuff from before!

Can you tell me a little more about why you suspect this?

- Coralife Turbo-Twist UV Fish Tank Sterilizer 6X, Up to 250 Gallons
- PaxBellum N24

 

[emart805]

What sps are you having problems with? Maricultured colonies or aquacultured frags? Try some old classics like Ora and see what happens… something in your biome isn’t correct or a bacteria in your tank I’d guess.. both come with time like mentioned above..

Pretty much everything. I tried a birds nest, remembering how hard they are to kill and it died. Lost a couple of digis as well. Lost some chalice. My blue tort was doing great for about a month then it started to STN. About the only things that are doing well are LPS and polyps. My acans are doing well too.

 

[GSPClown94]

(I had more fish but they caught a nasty virus that killed many overnight

That's unfortunate you lost some of your fish, I'm wondering if this sudden die off has anything to do with the coral RTN you are experiencing. Can you remember if there were any changes to the aquarium just before the RTN started?

 

[Troylee]

Pretty much everything. I tried a birds nest, remembering how hard they are to kill and it died. Lost a couple of digis as well. Lost some chalice. My blue tort was doing great for about a month then it started to STN. About the only things that are doing well are LPS and polyps. My acans are doing well too.

lol.. here’s been my experience so take it for what it’s worth… I’ve been doing this off and on for about 20 years and I’ve never been able to keep birdsnest for what ever reason idk but I can keep the hardest and most sensitive tenius out there.. digis don’t do the greatest for me either and I think my issue with those is the flow is crazy in my tank and lighting is even more crazy haha… I’ve always been a super high flow and super high light guy myself. I run my tank simple with just live rock and a skimmer with nothing else for filtration besides carbon dosing and feeding bacteria. Get a few Ora corals that been around or a green slimer and use those as testers to feel your tank out and then keep on trucking!

 

[Tuna Melt]

I’m in the same boat as you, I know the feeling and it sucks. Sorry and I wish ya the best!

On another note, I’ve run all the traps my self to no avail. I’ve been toying with the idea of throwing in some TBS live rock to try and rebalance the biome. I also started with 100% dry rock and have Dipped everything that’s gone into my tank so who knows, maybe I’m missing some critical microbe. I just posted my experience in my build thread if you’re curious. I may be sent to a leper colony for saying this but I used Cipro to great effect when the STN was running rampant. It didn’t fix the problem though, whatever it is, is still in my tank.

 

[emart805]

That's unfortunate you lost some of your fish, I'm wondering if this sudden die off has anything to do with the coral RTN you are experiencing. Can you remember if there were any changes to the aquarium just before the RTN started?

No changes, I was just thinking how great everything was going right before.

 

[Pod_01]

Can you tell me a little more about why you suspect this?

- Coralife Turbo-Twist UV Fish Tank Sterilizer 6X, Up to 250 Gallons
- PaxBellum N24

Nothing against the tools but sometimes if all are used at the same time it can be too much.

UV will reduce bad and good bacteria etc… in the water. I used it while back but no more. I think it is good tool to have ready but only use it when Dino or some fish disease shows up.

PaxBellum with skimmer might be too much filtering and the water becomes too clean.

For example for filtration I only have skimmer and GAC (30/50 ml per 50gal) sitting in the sump changed once a month. I don’t have fleece, scrubber, fuge, gfo, sock etc…
My reasoning is that the corals (coral mass) should be the main filter and I only supplement the process.
What I observed with ICP is that once corals take off the trace element imbalance also disappears. With insufficient coral mass some elements can accumulate if dosed and create weird imbalance and if you try to fix it you will chase your tail.

I do use carbon dosing to feed bacteria that hopefully feeds the corals. I use TM NP bacto ballance and only dose 0.6ml per 60 gal. Not for nutrition control but from my experience a good idea when using dry rock.