Yes but I use an oxidator - do not know if it will affect DOC. However, I have sent in a N/DOC test to Triton. Let see what it will say.
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
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what effect are you expecting from an oxidator in regards to DOC?Yes but I use an oxidator - do not know if it will affect DOC. However, I have sent in a N/DOC test to Triton. Let see what it will say.
Sincerely Lasse
Sorry Lasse for being some what naive, & confused, but what specific question are you asking with these tests in regards to the subject?I do not think one test will say anything but if many people does the test (and maybe test for some years) you probably can see a pattern. Not in the way - that reading - do that but a pattern that help you understand whats happening. But I think that every test must be in the context of just that aquaria.
Sincerely Lasse
This is a good question.I will see how much free DOC I have and also the rate between N, P, and C. In time - I hope be able to link the rations to different events in the aquaria.
Sincerely Lasse
I know this is old, but Dr. Holmes-Farley, you just made my day.That is not what I asked and not what they claimed.
Maybe it is a translation issue, but there's a big difference (IMO) between thinking something potentially useful is released to saying that the overall effect is "useful".
To meet the criteria of their claim and the basis of my question, the amount released needs to be sufficient to have a perceived benefit to to tank, and it must not have detrimental effects that could possibly override the benefits.
Without an actual experiment of some sort, I do not know how one can make that claim.
Let me give a different example:
Human saliva contains many of the things that are ascribed to release from algae, at least in its major classes, and even more good stuff: proteins, carbohydrates, glucose calcium, magnesium, potassium, bicarbonate, nitrogen sources such as ammonia and urea.
All of those individually might be described as useful in reef tanks in various scenarios.
Is spitting into the tank useful? Why is this not generally recommended for every reef tank?
Might spitting into the tank be more "useful" than the organics released from macroalgae? lol
Maybe this is the better way to rephrase my original question to put some quantitation on it:
Is there any evidence that the release of "proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites" by algae in a refugium is more useful than spitting into the tank once a day?
Your asking, did the chicken come first or the egg. So, answer is, some see glass half full, others half empty. Depends on each other's resaults. I spit in my tank not always, it's closer than bathroom. Maybe why baby dendronephthya growing almost everywhere....HahahaI know this is old, but Dr. Holmes-Farley, you just made my day.
"Is there any evidence that the release of "proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites" by algae in a refugium is more useful than spitting into the tank once a day? "
Well Juilian, this IS THE FIRST RESPONSE IN THIS THREAD BY SOMEONE FROM TRITON.The TRITON Method is based upon Ehsan running his aquarium in Dusseldorf with incredible success for over a decade, without the need for water change, using TRITON quality assured products and regular TRITON ICP-OES lab testing. The refugium was and is still considered the key component of filtration for the TRITON method.
If spitting in your tank gives you similar results then who are we to argue
Thank you for the reply back. I, too, would like to hear what you (as a representative of Triton) have to say regarding the initial question posed by @Randy Holmes-Farley nearly 2 years back.The TRITON Method is based upon Ehsan running his aquarium in Dusseldorf with incredible success for over a decade, without the need for water change, using TRITON quality assured products and regular TRITON ICP-OES lab testing. The refugium was and is still considered the key component of filtration for the TRITON method.
If spitting in your tank gives you similar results then who are we to argue
Thank you for the reply back. I, too, would like to hear what you (as a representative of Triton) have to say regarding the initial question posed by @Randy Holmes-Farley nearly 2 years back.
I wonder if I could bottle my spit and make a killing... hmm.
I hadn't realized what I said was disrespectful or rude... Certainly not my intent.doubt you’ll get an answer with that attitude, Is the last paragraph really necessary? You are addressing a Respectful sponsor at the end of the day.
That is from your Triton method description:
https://www.triton.de/en/products-services/triton-method/
"A healthy algae refuge will consume animal waste by-products and some metals while exporting useful proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites."
What is the basis for saying these these released chemicals are useful? Is there any supporting evidence?
"A healthy algae refuge will consume animal waste by-products and some metals while exporting useful proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites."
Thank you for the insight and reply. I appreciate when you (Triton) respond back to the user-base.I have spoken with Ehsan about this and he believes that something needs to be clarified here.
Firstly, the discussion this has generated is very interesting and informative. We understand, as a chemist hearing or reading the statement above, you would have a different perspective on the meaning. From a biologist viewpoint the algae is both a life form, and in the TRITON Method, also acting as a habitat and food source for the range of micro organisms that dwell in the refugium. That being understood it is a very natural process that all of the life forms in the refugium (algae included) will create proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites (which from here on I will refer to as PCM) as a by product and are in themselves packages of all of these components. The beauty of these living packages of PCM is that they remain more stable over time, while they are alive, and support the system with a permanently higher level of available PCM . Obviously this is not a TRITON innovation but just an attempt to replicate the processes that occur in nature.
To shine a bit of light on the key point that may have been misunderstood in the initial statement above (probably our fault for not making it clearer) is that the algae "refuge" produces and enriches the surrounding water with PCM and it is not only the "algae" in the refuge that is responsible for this.
In TRITON's reef aquarium based experiments over the past decade it is very visible that export and import mechanisms of the algae refuge, especially when supported by the right supplementation program designed for an algae refuge, is both beneficial and "useful" for a closed system reef aquarium. It is easier, more stable and more natural than any alternative (eg. additions of coral foods, amino acids and other supplements).
For sure the algae can also create toxic metabolites, which is the potential down side of an algae refuge, but our database shows that there is a much higher risk to an aquarium created through contamination by organic and inorganic supplements that people are willing to add to their aquarium to achieve similar results. Also the quality and availability of these supplements are usually lower and more irregular than that provided by an algae refuge. As this thread is focused on the release from the algae refuge we will not even go into the variety of filtration benefits.
Finally, to the question of evidence for our claim we would say yes, there is plenty. If you need it in the form of a scientific write up identifying one particular protein or carbohydrate or metabolite there possibly are but we do not base our claim on these kinds of papers. I believe that Lasse has posted some papers to this end earlier in this thread.
We know that these biological pathways are extremely complex and poorly understood which led us to be the first and only company in this industry to initiate research into the area of organic carbon and Nitrogen. Through the introduction of N-DOC lab testing we started to investigate the affects of Total Organic Carbon (TOC), Total Inorganic Carbon (TIC) and Total Nitrogen bound (TNB) in the reef aquarium over two years ago. This is already the largest existing database worldwide delivering valuable information.
But he hasn’t clarified anything... for instance @Julian@Triton hasn’t mentioned anything about heavy metal absorption, the explanation of ”PCM” is very wishy washy, seeing as he got a plug in for N-DOC, what levels are PCM are desirable? Whats to much? How does it measure in N-DOC? What can we see in NDOC results that would indicate a healthy level of PCM... triton only ever use anecdotal evidence form ”there extensive research” without publishing it or even allowing it to be scrutinised... they could be making everything up for all we know... again I’ll ask you to publish your testing findings, you will get a lot more respect...Thank you for the insight and reply. I appreciate when you (Triton) responds back to the user-base.
I am curious what response can be gathered from smarter reefers (there's so many on R2R ) like @Randy Holmes-Farley.
Thank you, Julian.