Ammonia as route cause to all nuisance in the hobby.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How does ammonia gets into synthetic sea salt mixes? Is it added purposefully?

Likely as a contaminant in magnesium chloride. Maybe in other components as well.

 

[TokenReefer]

Ok. Wasn't sure if they knew something we didn't

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok. Wasn't sure if they knew something we didn't

It is most often not a correct assumption to assume that manufacturers are smarter about what to put in products than well educated reefers.

 

[TokenReefer]

It is most often not a correct assumption to assume that manufacturers are smarter about what to put in products than well educated reefers.

This is something I'll have to keep in mind in my reefing journey. Thanks for pointing that out

 

[ReefGeezer]

Thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley and @sixty_reefer.

FWIW... I've struggled with this for a while. I even stopped carbon dosing for a while because I was afraid the process would use ammonia the corals preferred. I have back tracked a little though. I add 15 ml per day (ish) of vinegar just to provide additional input to the food web. It could be due to my poor observational skills, but the tank seems to run better with a little carbon rich input.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley and @sixty_reefer.

FWIW... I've struggled with this for a while. I even stopped carbon dosing for a while because I was afraid the process would use ammonia the corals preferred. I have back tracked a little though. I add 15 ml per day (ish) of vinegar just to provide additional input to the food web. It could be due to my poor observational skills, but the tank seems to run better with a little carbon rich input.

The way I understand it is that carbon and ammonia under normal circumstances are beneficial to a system.
if you are not trying to eradicate a nuisance and you observe nitrates rising (meaning the system is producing more nitrogen that it can dealt with) dosing organic carbon is a way to aid your beneficial bacteria at reducing the extra nitrogen being produced. Algae beds are also used for this same reason although they not as easy as carbon to tune in.
In this situation the dose of organic carbon should be keep once nitrates are at the desired residual.
if a nuisance was to be present and you wish to stall their growth momentarily wile the CUC is working, having the residual nitrates constantly slowly decreasing with the aid of carbon dosing it will have the beneficial bacteria using more ammonia than your autotrophic organisms (coral and algae). In this situation I would also point out that if nitrates get close to zero more nitrates should be added in the form of calcium nitrate or potassium nitrate (the form of nitrogen that algae has to spend more energy to get the ammonia) and the dose of DOC maintained.

I believe that we can easily understand if a system is producing more nitrogen that it can use by interpreting the nitrates rising and depleting. Rising unused ammonia will always end up as nitrates

 

[sixty_reefer]

I'm still waiting for evidence that it is. lol

Most likely a better paper than I ever could do at hobby level

Putting the N in dinoflagellates

The cosmopolitan presence of dinoflagellates in aquatic habitats is now believed to be a direct consequence of the different trophic modes they have developed through evolution. While heterotrophs ingest food and photoautotrophs photosynthesize, mixotrophic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

quote:

Generally, when growing in presence of various different N compounds, dinoflagellates (as well as plants and algae) prefer to take up Nh4.

quote:

different blooming populations of dinoflagellates were found to have high uptake rates for urea and/or amino acids

And a good paper on carbohydrates and effects on ammonia levels.

Effect of different biofloc starters on ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite concentrations in the cultured tilapia Oreochromis niloticus system

Background: High stocking density and intensive feeding in aquaculture systems lead to the accumulation of organic waste, which results in an increase in ammonia, nitrite, and nitrite concentrations in culture media. Biofloc is a potential technology ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[GARRIGA]

Most likely a better paper than I ever could do at hobby level

Putting the N in dinoflagellates

The cosmopolitan presence of dinoflagellates in aquatic habitats is now believed to be a direct consequence of the different trophic modes they have developed through evolution. While heterotrophs ingest food and photoautotrophs photosynthesize, mixotrophic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

quote:

Generally, when growing in presence of various different N compounds, dinoflagellates (as well as plants and algae) prefer to take up Nh4.

quote:

different blooming populations of dinoflagellates were found to have high uptake rates for urea and/or amino acids

And a good paper on carbohydrates and effects on ammonia levels.

Effect of different biofloc starters on ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite concentrations in the cultured tilapia Oreochromis niloticus system

Background: High stocking density and intensive feeding in aquaculture systems lead to the accumulation of organic waste, which results in an increase in ammonia, nitrite, and nitrite concentrations in culture media. Biofloc is a potential technology ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

My understanding of most photosynthetic organism being they prefer ammonium and have to down-convert nitrites/nitrates and why I'm not sold on this mantra that a certain level of nitrates need to be maintained. I just overfeed and provide a large enough biological filter to handle the excess ammonium from detritus and fish produced along with carbon dosing to offset the resulting nitrates. Plan was to build my media filter to handle denitrification but that failed as it appears not to be large enough to scale required yet carbon dosing solved that issue. My nitrate target is zero which is considerably easier for me to achieve than holding a narrow band and overfeeding even easier. Let nature eat my approach. As to the science involved. No clue. Don't care. I monitor results. Easier for me to do and often nothing more than my eyes to confirm. Point at where I don't bother testing often and more of a task to confirm versus validate.

 

[sixty_reefer]

My understanding of most photosynthetic organism being they prefer ammonium and have to down-convert nitrites/nitrates and why I'm not sold on this mantra that a certain level of nitrates need to be maintained. I just overfeed and provide a large enough biological filter to handle the excess ammonium from detritus and fish produced along with carbon dosing to offset the resulting nitrates. Plan was to build my media filter to handle denitrification but that failed as it appears not to be large enough to scale required yet carbon dosing solved that issue. My nitrate target is zero which is considerably easier for me to achieve than holding a narrow band and overfeeding even easier. Let nature eat my approach. As to the science involved. No clue. Don't care. I monitor results. Easier for me to do and often nothing more than my eyes to confirm. Point at where I don't bother testing often and more of a task to confirm versus validate.

Yea although you often carbon dose in your experimental tank to get the nutrients depleted, in the second article it illustrates the reduction in nh4, no2 and no3 wile carbon dosing in comparison to a control tank were they all keep spiking up.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

quote:

Generally, when growing in presence of various different N compounds, dinoflagellates (as well as plants and algae) prefer to take up Nh4.

I think that the focus on ammonia is not as clear cut when considering this statement made in the same paper:

"Taken together, these observations suggest that dinoflagellates possess a full suite of transporters for inorganic N and organic N forms, that they have the biochemical means to assimilate these N forms, and that they show a great physiological plasticity in response to external N types and concentrations."

This may be, perhaps, why dinos dominate at lower N availability in reef tanks, and it may be the thriving of competitors for space or trace elements that is more important to keeping them in check than trying to limit N to them.

That hypothesis also is consistent with hobbyists experiences with dinos at low nutrients.

 

[TokenReefer]

Generally, when growing in presence of various different N compounds, dinoflagellates (as well as plants and algae) prefer to take up Nh4.

Quite a bit to take in and still reading but I think this is why I don't understand the methodology of dosing ammonia on a new tank that is going through a dino bloom; I just see it as fuel. Still reading; thanks for all this info.

 

[GARRIGA]

Yea although you often carbon dose in your experimental tank to get the nutrients depleted, in the second article it illustrates the reduction in nh4, no2 and no3 wile carbon dosing in comparison to a control tank were they all keep spiking up.

Wouldn't ammonia and nitrites deplete naturally in a properly functioning and properly sized biological filter? I've never noticed spike in either post cycle outside of a large die off of life or major inadvertent overfeeding. As how carbon dosing affects that is deeper in the weeds then I'll venture but sugars or similar needed for heterotrophs would also exist in nature and the decomposition of detritus would also naturally provide.

My only reason to go to carbon dosing is because early on I was able to stabilize nitrates below 5 ppm but I'm assuming that since I don't remove detritus then there's constant decomposition feeding the nitrification process yet I'm unable to strip DO to the point heterotrophs can perform their function without additional sugars. Could very likely be wrong in my assumption yet it doesn't change the fact my system works.

My main issue being the reduction of flow to increase contact time allowing nitrification time to remove all DO or lower it below 0.5 ppm. Was going to fix that then discovered that carbon dosing works regardless of flow which is simpler to implement and requires a smaller biological footprint. In the end, I'm relatively nuisance free except for a rock directly under my light and that will be fixed in due time. Being result driven. It works. Exactly how or why? Not clear. Not sure knowing would increase it's effectiveness, either. Especially knowing theories are constantly changing as new research papers shed new light or new testing methods review that we never knew existed or how to monitor it.

Perhaps carbon testing will shed that new light. That being my expectation but for now I'll rely on ICP tests to show me what might need reduction or increases. Going to just keep overfeeding and overdosing carbon until it causes issues at which point I'll become more interested in why. Was having white slime but that seems to have receded. No clue why.

 

[ReefGeezer]

...This may be, perhaps, why dinos dominate at lower N availability in reef tanks, and it may be the thriving of competitors for space or trace elements that is more important to keeping them in check than trying to limit N to them...

Exactly! I really think that is why these pests are not as prominent in tanks started with 100% live rock. The space is already occupied. In addition, the biomass sucks up available trace elements. As a bonus, the organisms in/on the live rock also compete for N, but I think that has less impact on the ability of Dinos or even Cyano to grow.

 

[sixty_reefer]

That hypothesis also is consistent with hobbyists experiences with dinos at low nutrients.

we have to consider that we only limiting nitrates, other forms of N will still be available in the form of urea, amino acids, ammonia and possibly nitrite, that as the paper illustrate are all beneficial forms of nitrogen for dinoflagellates.
In the second paper I’ve shared, there is a detailed study on how doc affects ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. Both papers combined illustrate how some folks had successfully in the past starve dinoflagellates with known carbon dosing methods to eliminate forms of nitrogen that are beneficial for they’re growth by limiting nitrogen. The paper also illustrate that ammonia and nitrite can be fully depleted without depleting nitrates.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Wouldn't ammonia and nitrites deplete naturally in a properly functioning and properly sized biological filter? I've never noticed spike in either post cycle outside of a large die off of life or major inadvertent overfeeding. As how carbon dosing affects that is deeper in the weeds then I'll venture but sugars or similar needed for heterotrophs would also exist in nature and the decomposition of detritus would also naturally provide.

yes, most balance thriving system are a good example of a biological filter working in harmony, including coral and other photosynthetic organisms not just bacteria.

 

[Dan_P]

I think that the focus on ammonia is not as clear cut when considering this statement made in the same paper:

"Taken together, these observations suggest that dinoflagellates possess a full suite of transporters for inorganic N and organic N forms, that they have the biochemical means to assimilate these N forms, and that they show a great physiological plasticity in response to external N types and concentrations."

This may be, perhaps, why dinos dominate at lower N availability in reef tanks, and it may be the thriving of competitors for space or trace elements that is more important to keeping them in check than trying to limit N to them.

That hypothesis also is consistent with hobbyists experiences with dinos at low nutrients.

When all you have is a hammer… There is more to life than nitrogen and phosphorous availability.

 

[sixty_reefer]

When all you have is a hammer… There is more to life than nitrogen and phosphorous availability.

With limited tools, single-minded people apply them inappropriately or indiscriminately.

There would be no life on this planet without carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus, I believe asteroid are rich in minerals though.

 

[Dan_P]

With limited tools, single-minded people apply them inappropriately or indiscriminately.

I see that

 

[Timfish]

I totally agree with this - but its a different discussion.

In an earlier post you state that´s we can´t analyse DOC and organic carbon. That´s not total right because tritons N-DOC test is a useful tool in this case. It give you TOC and TIC in the water

Sincerely Lasse

I saw the articel when they first put out the test. I've tried to look up Triton's N-DOC test on google scholar but couldn't find anything so it seems to be a proprietary test. Regardless, it's not telling us how much of the DOC is labile, semi-refractory or refractory. And since research (some llinked in my first post) is showing species specific responses to different types of DOC as well as significant hourly changes in DOC it doesn't strike me as a particularly useful test.

 

[Lasse]

how much of the DOC is labile

I do not really know what you mean with the word labile in this context. The definition of DOC says Dissolved Organic Carbon - it means that they all are available for uptake. But you are right in one way - the result is not reported as DOC - its reported as Total Organic Carbon - it means it also shows particulate organic carbon. But that´s its easy to fix - if you want to know just DOC - send in a filtrated sample. Its true that different organisms prefer different type of DOC and therefore you need to be careful and not overdose.

Sincerely Lasse