Ammonia in INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS

[allsite]

First off, I'll just say I'm one sad fish dad. One by one my fish and corals are dying. It's my first reef and my 5 fish were buddies for 2 years. Not a single death until this week.

INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS crashed my reef with ammonia. I didn't believe it at first but the tests feel conclusive.

The picture with 2 tubes:
Left: RODI+salt mix (from a pitcher of water with a drop of AmmoLock)
Right: RODI+salt mix

The picture with 1 tube:
Just RODI

Is it in my bucket? Nope, I tested it with a clean pitcher, exact same result. Nothing else touches the water prior to testing.

I have 2 boxes of mix that were ordered several months apart. One brand new, the other about 4 months old. They BOTH produced the same result (as seen in the pic).

All of the tests were done to water that was tank-ready, salinity and temp on par. I'm happy I didn't dump it into the tank but that also mean I'm just letting it die until I get new salt first thing tomorrow. I really hope AmmoLock and bacteria additives can save what little is left (1 clown and a few frags).

My tank is currently testing better than the right tube and worse than the left (forgot to take a photo but it's somewhat irrelevant in this thread).

My question is, how is it possible INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS could produce 0.7ppm ammonia seawater? They're just selling poison? Is that not the point when doing a water change, to remove bad stuff while introducing good stuff?

It was traumatic to watch it crash after enjoying it to the max, stuck in a small apartment downtown during a pandemic. However I realize other reefers have incurred much bigger losses and my heart goes out to anyone who has to go through it.

 

[Cell]

Thank you for the invite!

I'm heading out for an 8 mile trail run in a few minutes so won't be available again until later today, but I'll leave a few quick comments after reading through the thread. I am very sorry for your losses, this is a tough one.

First is that @Jay Hemdal is absolutely correct in that it is nearly impossible to electrocute a marine fish because they are less conductive than the water they swim in. You can do it to a FW fish, not SW.

2nd, you should never have any type of DC in your tank. Even what we call DC motors are fed with some type of AC. It's not a true sine wave so meters may not read it correctly, but it is AC.

3rd is that, unless you run a ground probe or grounded titanium heater, having AC voltage in your tank is very normal. You can wrap an extension cord around a bucket of salt water, plug a large load into it, and read over 50V inside the bucket. It is due to induction and shouldn't bother fish in the least. My system, with the heaters unplugged and the ground probe removed, reads 24VAC. It is under 1VAC with them plugged in.

The real concern is if you have a fault voltage from a bad cord or pump in your water. The easiest way to determine which is which is to try running the system on a GFCI (GCD) with a ground probe. If the GFCI/GCD trips, this is a very bad thing. A failed pump can leach copper and other toxins into your system which absolutely can kill fish.

Hope that helps, I'll swing buy later today to see if there are any questions.

Using Ground Probes in Aquariums

Why your saltwater aquarium needs a ground probe (or several). The piece is written by an expert electrician.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Using Ground Probes in Aquariums

Why your saltwater aquarium needs a ground probe (or several). The piece is written by an expert electrician.

www.reef2reef.com

Immediately caught my eye is point 2... Do you have a multimeter?

 

[shred5]

Im surprised (and I would ask your landlord) - that a double pronged outlet is still allowed? I would ask him/her to upgrade that socket perhaps?

The problem is if there was no upgrades this would not have been upgrded. You can not just add a 3 prong outlet with out rewiring everything. If they did not pull a extra ground wire to begin with it is a major project. Being residential I doubt there would also be conduit which could act as a ground too. I have seen some old houses that still have knob and tube wiring.

 

[MnFish1]

The problem is if there was not upgrades this would not have been upgrded. You can not just add a 3 prong outlet with out rewiring everything. If they did not pull a extra ground wire to begin with it is a major project. I have seen some old houses that still have knob and tube wiring.

Yes - understood. My understanding is that they could also add a GFCI outlet if there is no ground wire behind the outlet.

 

[Beau_B]

The problem is if there was not upgrades this would not have been upgrded. You can not just add a 3 prong outlet with out rewiring everything. If they did not pull a extra ground wire to begin with it is a major project. I have seen some old houses that still have knob and tube wiring.

This! Adding 3-prong outlets to 2-wire systems is against code and for good reason.

*edit: Yes, you can install a GFCI. I meant not a standard outlet.

Depending on the region, 2-wire homes are not uncommon. Knob & tube is actually very safe, except when the casing is damaged (age if nothing else) and is in exposed areas. Also blown in insulation to wall cavities can lead to heat dissipation problems, compounded by people putting 20A breakers in on 14g wire.

Running an aquarium on an extension cord isn't an automatic wrong. Wire gauge and load need to be considered.

Running an aquarium on an un-grounded circuit also is not automatically wrong. The ground, GFCI, and some other items are there to protect YOU not the fish. A two wire system in a wood house without some errant ground source would not be a risk anyway. I can hold the line side of a wire all day long without injury as long as I am not grounded myself. Just don't become part of a circuit.

 

[shred5]

Ok I am not a electrical engineer but work for a electrical engineering company for 30 + years and do some electrical engineering.

You could grab a hot wire and nothing will happen till you touch ground (Complete the circuit).

As far as a ground probe goes in a reef tank it completes a circuit.
Electricity will follow the path of least resistance so it protect you.
It is my belief a grounding does not protect your fish. Matter of fact it could make it worse. If something is having stray voltage where does it go, no where. Now you complete that circuit with a grounding probe and now your fish are in a path of moving electricity.

 

[allsite]

The problem is if there was no upgrades this would not have been upgrded. You can not just add a 3 prong outlet with out rewiring everything. If they did not pull a extra ground wire to begin with it is a major project. Being residential I doubt there would also be conduit which could act as a ground too. I have seen some old houses that still have knob and tube wiring.

It looks to me like they added the absolute minimal, like most downtown landlords would. But luckily that should be enough for me since it’s close enough to the tank, about 15 feet total. Once I have a ground I can test with the multimeter. I’m not aware of any way to do it without the ground and it’s definitely not something I’m going to experiment with.

 

[MnFish1]

Ok I am not a electrical engineer but work for a electrical engineering company for 30 + years and do some electrical engineering.

You could grab a hot wire and nothing will happen till you touch ground.

As far as a ground probe goes in a reef tank it completes a circuit.
Electricity will follow the path of least resistance so it protect you.
It is my belief a grounding does not protect your fish. Matter of fact it could make it worse. If something is having stray voltage where does it go, no where. Now you complete that circuit with a grounding probe and now your fish are in a path of moving electricity.

Agreed. The ground probe debate has gone on for years.... Many people for many people against. Then again - so has the 'stray voltage' debate.

 

[Kershaw]

I think he is asking questions and reading - which is why he posted in the first place. I think its an extremely interesting discussion, because I think it illustrates a lot of things that are extremely common on these forums - which is 'correlation does not equal causation'. For example the ammonia test/ammonia likely did not cause this problem (i.e. ammonia in the salt). Personally, I dislike the phrase 'nothing good happens fast'. Why? there is no definition of fast or good. I.e. this has led to the almost dogma that unless you take 6 months to build a tank, and then spend 4 months cycling it - while testing every 15 minutes, and then only add certain coral after a year (let alone an anemone). IMHO - teasing out these issues is the purpose of a 'discussion' board.

it is very interesting which is while I’m still here but every time the thread switches from salt to electrical to bacteria to cancer it’s hard to say it is one thing or another. Maybe you all followed it better then I did lol.
I’ll clarify my statement of nothing good happens fast.
when you make a change in a reef tank the positive effects normally happen slower then bad ones.
im not opposed rushing cycling and other things in this hobby. The issue I have is people over react even when it’s logical to like loosing fish and start changing things with out evidence. When trouble shooting you have to take a tactical pause before making decisions IMO.
If your car dies while driving it what’s the first thing you should do? Make sure it has gas (if it’s gas powered) your not going to start taking off the wheels or pulling the intake off.
It’s easy to over react in this hobby when your fish and coral start dying, but it normally does not end well

 

[MnFish1]

it is very interesting which is while I’m still here but every time the thread switches from salt to electrical to bacteria to cancer it’s hard to say it is one thing or another. Maybe you all followed it better then I did lol.
I’ll clarify my statement of nothing good happens fast.
when you make a change in a reef tank the positive effects normally happen slower then bad ones.
im not opposed rushing cycling and other things in this hobby. The issue I have is people over react even when it’s logical to like loosing fish and start changing things with out evidence. When trouble shooting you have to take a tactical pause before making decisions IMO.
If your car dies while driving it what’s the first thing you should do? Make sure it has gas (if it’s gas powered) your not going to start taking off the wheels or pulling the intake off.
It’s easy to over react in this hobby when your fish and coral start dying, but it normally does not end well

Yes - exactly. I wasn't commenting specifically on your post - and it was probably 'off topic'. I think I mentioned this to the OP last PM - that its best to give as much history as possible 'up front' - to avoid the multitude of suggestions (which was also confusing him, and why I mentioned it to him). I took your post a little the wrong way ( I thought you were saying he should just read and not ask questions here). My mistake. BTW are you suggesting CANCER is involved...??? LOL JK

 

[Kershaw]

Ok I am not a electrical engineer but work for a electrical engineering company for 30 + years and do some electrical engineering.

You could grab a hot wire and nothing will happen till you touch ground Complete the circuit).

As far as a ground probe goes in a reef tank it completes a circuit.
Electricity will follow the path of least resistance so it protect you.
It is my belief a grounding does not protect your fish. Matter of fact it could make it worse. If something is having stray voltage where does it go, no where. Now you complete that circuit with a grounding probe and now your fish are in a path of moving electricity.

I have been making this argument for a long time. I also don’t think you need a engineering degree to have a solid understanding of how electricity works. Just saying!

 

[shred5]

it is very interesting which is while I’m still here but every time the thread switches from salt to electrical to bacteria to cancer it’s hard to say it is one thing or another. Maybe you all followed it better then I did lol.
I’ll clarify my statement of nothing good happens fast.
when you make a change in a reef tank the positive effects normally happen slower then bad ones.
im not opposed rushing cycling and other things in this hobby. The issue I have is people over react even when it’s logical to like loosing fish and start changing things with out evidence. When trouble shooting you have to take a tactical pause before making decisions IMO.
If your car dies while driving it what’s the first thing you should do? Make sure it has gas (if it’s gas powered) your not going to start taking off the wheels or pulling the intake off.
It’s easy to over react in this hobby when your fish and coral start dying, but it normally does not end well

Agreed not to mention you are getting a 100 different ideas thrown at you.
Or people trying to say they are right based off link to other information that may just be anecdotal too or flat out wrong.
I actually disagree with the comment this is like RC but it is starting to feel like FB where there are 3 experienced people trying to help and getting buried by 50 bad answers. It is why I post so little now. It is easier to believe the short cut vs learning something and being able to deal with it later and being in the hobby another 10 years. It is why the average person does not make it 5 years anymore in this hobby. To much access to too much info and most of it is useless. Back in the day the info came from Books and magazines written by mostly experienced people. Now it comes from people that have been in the hobby less than 3 years.

 

[allsite]

Agreed not to mention you are getting a 100 different ideas thrown at you.
Or people trying to say they are right based off link to other information that may just be anecdotal too or flat out wrong.
I actually disagree with the comment this is like RC but it is starting to feel like FB where there are 3 experienced people trying to help and getting buried by 50 bad answers. It is why I post so little now. It is easier to believe the short cut vs learning something and being able to deal with it later and being in the hobby another 10 years. It is why the average person does not make it 5 years anymore in this hobby. To much access to too much info and most of it is useless. Back in the day the info came from Books and magazines written by mostly experienced people. Now it comes from people that have been in the hobby less than 3 years.

It’s as if people are trying to build their reef in WordPress

 

[shred5]

I have been making this argument for a long time. I also don’t think you need a engineering degree to have a solid understanding of how electricity works. Just saying!

What we do is design electrical systems for buildings. We design and make the plans a electrical contractor goes off of.
A big part of our job is sizing services, laying out lighting, doing lighting photometrics, lighting studies, laying out receptacles, circuiting to equipment and motors etc.
It has more to do with Electrical codes and math than electrical engineering, but yea we need to know the fundamentals of electricity too.

 

[Kershaw]

What we do is design electrical systems for buildings. We design and make the plans a electrical contractor goes off of.
A big part of our job is sizing services, laying out lighting, doing lighting photometrics, lighting studies, laying out receptacles, circuiting to equipment and motors etc.
It has more to do with Electrical codes and math than electrical engineering, but yea we need to know the fundamentals of electricity too.

I just have issues with engineers that’s all lol. Having delt with mechanical engineers For many years has made me bitter...

 

[Brew12]

@Brew12 perhaps you have some advice for those of us interested in saltwater and electricity?
OP has found electronic devices creating current to his aquarium and experienced rapid die off of several fish due to a cascade of events.

Thanks for bringing me in to this!

I don’t even have a 3 prong outlet in this room! I’ve ordered a GFCI module and an extension cord. I was going to run an extension cable to my bathroom GFCI but since I was recommended not to do that I bought a GFCI adapter and will run it to the closest 3 prong, just under the room door and a few more feet down the hall. Only after doing that can I use a ground probe, which I’ve also ordered.

I suspect that your GFCI's don't have a ground wire either. It is allowable to install a 3 prong GFCI unit to replace a 2 prong outlet without pulling a new ground. GFCI receptacles should come with a sticker in the packaging which needs to be applied to mark it as having no ground wire attached. Unfortunately, I don't think a ground probe will be an easy option for you.

I didn't go back through the entire thread (lack of time) but to me, ammonia and chlorine in fresh mixed salt sounds like a chloramine issue. Has this been checked for?

 

[allsite]

Test kit just arrived...yikes... Is it possible to have a relatively decent looking clown with that much ammonia? I stopped dosing ammolock and continue changing water. I did just dose Prime after the test.

 

[allsite]

Got the refractometer and I slightly adjusted the tank to match 1.026 calibration water. It was a slight adjustment only because I was running less salt on a hunch. A little less did the trick. Before the adjustment I had been at 1.025 per the bogus hydrometer, so probably around 1.028-1.029.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Test kit just arrived...yikes... Is it possible to have a relatively decent looking clown with that much ammonia? I stopped dosing ammolock and continue changing water. I did just dose Prime after the test.

How long ago did you stop dosing ammolock? I know that those products can give misreads as well if it was in the last 36 hours.

 

[allsite]

How long ago did you stop dosing ammolock? I know that those products can give misreads as well if it was in the last 36

Within 36 hours ammolock and Prime. Seachem badge says 0.05ppm ammonia.