Analyzing a Bacterial Method for Dinoflagellates (and cyano?)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's great that theoretically there are allowances and ranges, but pushing the boundaries on the aerobic reactions has shown increases in overall productivity of the bacterial species in this method.

Why stay in the box when the availability to operate outside the box delivers the required results?

Why say something is required without evidence that it is required?

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Why say something is required without evidence that it is required?

Heterotrophic bacteria require higher levels of dissolved oxygen. Not sure what you mean by quoting a paper that doesn't state knowing anything outside the studied or examined range?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Heterotrophic bacteria require higher levels of dissolved oxygen. Not sure what you mean by quoting a paper that doesn't state knowing anything outside the studied or examined range?

Not understanding. I'm saying nothing about O2.

I'm addressing the CO2/pH that is needed for aerobic digestion of organics. That is exactly what is quoted in the second paper for seawater as responding positively to elevated CO2/lowered pH.

Since that paper showed higher CO2 is desirable, and I've not seen any evidence that you have posted that pH 7.8 in seawater is less desirable than pH 8.2, then what is the evidence that you do not want elevated CO2/low pH?

 

[CS Reefer]

Not understanding. I'm saying nothing about O2.

I'm addressing the CO2/pH that is needed for aerobic digestion of organics. That is exactly what is quoted in the second paper for seawater as responding positively to elevated CO2/lowered pH.

Since that paper showed higher CO2 is desirable, and I've not seen any evidence that you have posted that pH 7.8 in seawater is less desirable than pH 8.2, then what is the evidence that you do not want elevated CO2/low pH?

Because I noticed my fish gasping at the surface, when my PH went down, after my protein skimmer failed. I think making sure my livestock is healthy is most important. I’m not so worried about certain strains of bacteria enjoying higher C02 levels

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Not understanding. I'm saying nothing about O2.

I'm addressing the CO2/pH that is needed for aerobic digestion of organics. That is exactly what is quoted in the second paper for seawater as responding positively to elevated CO2/lowered pH.

Since that paper showed higher CO2 is desirable, and I've not seen any evidence that you have posted that pH 7.8 in seawater is less desirable than pH 8.2, then what is the evidence that you do not want elevated CO2/low pH?

In section 1.2, in the paper you quoted, it specifically stated that "The scientific knowledge is by far insufficient to predict with precision the evolution and consequences of global change in marine environments." And it continues stating no adequate experimental studies or models are included but that it is known that heterotrophic bacteria play a major role in the degradation and remineralization of organic matter.

 

[taricha]

Not understanding. I'm saying nothing about O2.
...
what is the evidence that you do not want elevated CO2/low pH?

Because I noticed my fish gasping at the surface, when my PH went down, after my protein skimmer failed.

Randy to connect the dots, people are using pH (with Alk) as an indicator of elevated CO2 - which is sound, and as an indirect indicator of reduced O2 - which is not sound...
except in this case it isn't nonsense. Most of the CO2 produced is from a quite large dose of vodka getting oxidized so the excess CO2 in water is from O2 consumption.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Guess scientists at the Smithsonian are wrong about O2 also...

Low oxygen levels, coral bleaching getting worse in oceans

Two new studies show global warming is making oceans sicker, depleting oxygen and harming coral reefs

www.boston.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Because I noticed my fish gasping at the surface, when my PH went down, after my protein skimmer failed. I think making sure my livestock is healthy is most important. I’m not so worried about certain strains of bacteria enjoying higher C02 levels

Because I noticed my fish gasping at the surface, when my PH went down, after my protein skimmer failed. I think making sure my livestock is healthy is most important. I’m not so worried about certain strains of bacteria enjoying higher C02 levels

What do you mean? Aerating to keep fish from gasping is certainly desirable and I’d never suggest otherwise. That doesn’t say that pH 7.8 from highly elevated CO2 is a problem for aerobic metabolism or even fish health, does it?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In section 1.2, in the paper you quoted, it specifically stated that "The scientific knowledge is by far insufficient to predict with precision the evolution and consequences of global change in marine environments." And it continues stating no adequate experimental studies or models are included but that it is known that heterotrophic bacteria play a major role in the degradation and remineralization of organic matter.

lol

That was the prediction prior to his doing the work. The rationale for doing the work. Then he did the work and showed that high CO2 improved degradation of organics.

Seriously, if you cannot provide a single paper that says that slightly elevated CO2 (say, pH 7.8) decreases organic degradation in seawater, and I have given an experimental study that actually shows it helps degradation of organics in seawater, which argument is most persuasive?

 

[merereef]

lol

That was the prediction prior to his doing the work. The rationale for doing the work. Then he did the work and showed that high CO2 improved degradation of organics.

Seriously, if you cannot provide a single paper that says that slightly elevated CO2 (say, pH 7.8) decreases organic degradation in seawater, and I have given an experimental study that actually shows it helps degradation of organics in seawater, which argument is most persuasive?

Randy the legend... pleasure to have some input from you.. i wish we all just had 1 solution that got rid of dinos once and for all.. we should all get together and think of a solution that will rid dinos forever..

Anyone know if these stabalisers in hydrogen peroxide are safe to use in a reef tank?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Guess scientists at the Smithsonian are wrong about O2 also...

Low oxygen levels, coral bleaching getting worse in oceans

Two new studies show global warming is making oceans sicker, depleting oxygen and harming coral reefs

www.boston.com

I never said anything about O2 not being needed. Not sure why you keep claiming otherwise.

I think, as Taricha mentions, you are incorrectly correlating high CO2 with low O2, and hence are misunderstanding my claims That is just not the case in a reef tank. CO2 and O2 are not opposites. Both can be high, both low, or one high and one low. To claim you want low CO2 because that means you have high O2 is just not correct.

For others who might be interested, let's explore that issue in detail.

1. Folks who use high pH alkalinity additives such as sodium carbonate or calcium hydroxide (limewater/kalkwasser) reduce the CO2 in the tank, often to values well below that which is in equilibrium with normal air. But that process does absolutely nothing to raise (or lower) O2.

2. Folks who use CaCO2/CO2 reactors add CO2 to their aquaria, lowering pH and raising CO2 levels, often with CO2 ending up well above normal levels (pH below 8.1). Such reactors typically do nothing to raise or lower O2.

3. What about aeration with low vs high CO2 air? How does that impact O2? Let's see. Normal air is about 209,500 ppm O2 and about 400 ppm CO2. Normal saturation of seawater with O2 is about 6.6 mg/L at 25 deg C.

What if we have air where someone has breathed and converted some O2 to CO2, resulting in a 50% increase in CO2 to 600 ppm? How much does O2 drop? Since the total pressure hasn't changed (we made one CO2 from one O2), the O2 drops from 209,500 ppm to about 209,300 ppm. That changes the O2 pressure in the air by 0.095%.

How will that impact the O2 level in seawater that is equilibrated with that air? The solubility is directly related to the O2 pressure, so the 6.600 mg/L O2 in the seawater drops to 6.594 mg/L. That seems totally insignificant.

To compare that drop, it is much smaller than the change in O2 solubility in seawater from a 1 deg C change in the water temp. 25 deg C to 26 deg C causes a drop in O2 solubility from 6.600 mg/L to 6.500 mg/L.

What about pressure changes from barometer changes due to weather patterns? Those too are much bigger. A typical change in barometric readings is several whole number percent of the reading (much bigger in storms). A 2% drop in the barometric pressure will change the saturation level of O2 in seawater from 6.6 mg/L to below 6.5 mg/L. Much bigger change that that caused by in-home high CO2 air.

Thus, if high O2 is the goal during a treatment, you are far better off reducing the temperature and doing the work during a high pressure weather pattern than in worrying about the CO2 level in the air you are aerating with.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy the legend... pleasure to have some input from you.. i wish we all just had 1 solution that got rid of dinos once and for all.. we should all get together and think of a solution that will rid dinos forever..

Anyone know if these stabalisers in hydrogen peroxide are safe to use in a reef tank?

That phosphoric acid will boost phosphate and lower alk, but both effects will be quite small.

Not sure on the phenacetin. It is an active drug, but will be very dilute when added to a reef tank.

 

[CS Reefer]

lol

That was the prediction prior to his doing the work. The rationale for doing the work. Then he did the work and showed that high CO2 improved degradation of organics.

Seriously, if you cannot provide a single paper that says that slightly elevated CO2 (say, pH 7.8) decreases organic degradation in seawater, and I have given an experimental study that actually shows it helps degradation of organics in seawater, which argument is most persuasive?

Having a successful SPS dominant reef tank, while most people are struggling at 7.8 PH/dKh 8.2, is enough proof for me. Randy, would you share a picture or video or your successful SPS dominant tank, that ran at the levels you stated? Just curious if we’re talking theoretically, or if your stance is based on your actual observations? @TrPPnN, is your method based on actual experience, or hypothetical like Randy’s? Show me your tanks?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy to connect the dots, people are using pH (with Alk) as an indicator of elevated CO2 - which is sound, and as an indirect indicator of reduced O2 - which is not sound...
except in this case it isn't nonsense. Most of the CO2 produced is from a quite large dose of vodka getting oxidized so the excess CO2 in water is from O2 consumption.

I think if Cruz just said that aeration was very important to keep O2 high, I'd be perfectly happy with it. But to say the aeration needs to be with 400 ppm CO2 air (implying that, say, 600 ppm CO2 air is not fine) is not credible. Your point about the organic degradation consuming O2 is excellant. That's a big reason to aerate, whether the air has 100 ppm CO2, 400 ppm CO2, or 600 ppm Co2. The effect on O2 is nearly identical in all of those cases, and is much smaller than other factors he doesn't mention, such as temperature or barometeric pressure.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I reef. It's actual experience. Not hypothetical.

 

[CS Reefer]

I think if Cruz just said that aeration was very important to keep O2 high, I'd be perfectly happy with it. But to say the aeration needs to be with 400 ppm CO2 air (implying that, say, 600 ppm CO2 air is not fine) is not credible. Your point about the organic degradation consuming O2 is excellant. That's a big reason to aerate, whether the air has 100 ppm CO2, 400 ppm CO2, or 600 ppm Co2. The effect on O2 is nearly identical in all of those cases, and is much smaller than other factors he doesn't mention, such as temperature or barometeric pressure.

With temp, given most reefers keep their tank at a pretty typical temperature, I’m not seeing how this is a BIG consideration

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Having a successful SPS dominant reef tank, while most people are struggling at 7.8 PH/dKh 8.2, is enough proof for me. Randy, would you share a picture or video or your successful SPS dominant tank, that ran at the levels you stated? Just curious if we’re talking theoretically, or if your stance is based on your actual observations? @TrPPnN, is your method based on actual experience, or hypothetical like Randy’s? Show me your tanks?

Let's back up and understand what you are asking.

First of all, I never made any claim about SPS tanks. I was talking EXCLUSIVELY about Cruz's claim that low CO2 air is needed to aerate in his method for treating dinos.

But, as an extension, you are now claiming that pH 7.9 (double the CO2 of seawater equilibrated with normal air) leads to a poor SPS tank? Seriously? Google "don't chase pH" and you will see endless pictures of great SPS tanks that hit that pH. I'm a big fan of higher pH to spur growth of hard corals, but it is not "needed".

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

With temp, given most reefers keep their tank at a pretty typical temperature, I’m not seeing how this is a BIG consideration

Dropping the temp by 1 deg C makes a much bigger impact on O2 than aerating with low vs high CO2 air that Cruz recommends. That's how it relates. Maybe neither is important, or maybe both are. I'm just putting it in context for nonchemists.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

We have run our tanks at 76°F for 3 weeks to 84°F for several more weeks to test the theory of proper aeration with 400ppm CO2 (fresh outdoor air).

What we saw was a consistent d.o. level with the tanks with bubbling but a decrease in d.o. in a control tank without bubbling as tank temperatures increased. At which point, pH in the non-bubbled tank decreased from 8.3 to 7.6, at which point, fish died and corals bleached then sloughed off their tissue.

No bleaching events were observed in the well aerated tanks nor any fish mortalities regardless of temperature...

Barometric pressure was assumed to be the same for all systems being thaws they were a few feet apart at the facility.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We have run our tanks at 76°F for 3 weeks to 84°F for several more weeks to test the theory of proper aeration with 400ppm CO2 (fresh outdoor air).

What we saw was a consistent d.o. level with the tanks with bubbling but a decrease in d.o. in a control tank without bubbling as tank temperatures increased. At which point, pH in the non-bubbled tank decreased from 8.3 to 7.6, at which point, fish died and corals bleached then sloughed off their tissue.

No bleaching events were observed in the well aerated tanks nor any fish mortalities regardless of temperature...

Barometric pressure was assumed to be the same for all systems being thaws they were a few feet apart at the facility.

You showed aeration is important. I'm not disagreeing.