Analyzing a Bacterial Method for Dinoflagellates (and cyano?)

[CS Reefer]

I never said anything about O2 not being needed. Not sure why you keep claiming otherwise.

I think, as Taricha mentions, you are incorrectly correlating high CO2 with low O2, and hence are misunderstanding my claims That is just not the case in a reef tank. CO2 and O2 are not opposites. Both can be high, both low, or one high and one low. To claim you want low CO2 because that means you have high O2 is just not correct.

For others who might be interested, let's explore that issue in detail.

1. Folks who use high pH alkalinity additives such as sodium carbonate or calcium hydroxide (limewater/kalkwasser) reduce the CO2 in the tank, often to values well below that which is in equilibrium with normal air. But that process does absolutely nothing to raise (or lower) O2.

2. Folks who use CaCO2/CO2 reactors add CO2 to their aquaria, lowering pH and raising CO2 levels, often with CO2 ending up well above normal levels (pH below 8.1). Such reactors typically do nothing to raise or lower O2.

3. What about aeration with low vs high CO2 air? How does that impact O2? Let's see. Normal air is about 209,500 ppm O2 and about 400 ppm CO2. Normal saturation of seawater with O2 is about 6.6 mg/L at 25 deg C.

What if we have air where someone has breathed and converted some O2 to CO2, resulting in a 50% increase in CO2 to 600 ppm? How much does O2 drop? Since the total pressure hasn't changed (we made one CO2 from one O2), the O2 drops from 209,500 ppm to about 209,300 ppm. That changes the O2 pressure in the air by 0.095%.

How will that impact the O2 level in seawater that is equilibrated with that air? The solubility is directly related to the O2 pressure, so the 6.600 mg/L O2 in the seawater drops to 6.594 mg/L. That seems totally insignificant.

To compare that drop, it is much smaller than the change in O2 solubility in seawater from a 1 deg C change in the water temp. 25 deg C to 26 deg C causes a drop in O2 solubility from 6.600 mg/L to 6.500 mg/L.

What about pressure changes from barometer changes due to weather patterns? Those too are much bigger. A typical change in barometric readings is several whole number percent of the reading (much bigger in storms). A 2% drop in the barometric pressure will change the saturation level of O2 in seawater from 6.6 mg/L to below 6.5 mg/L. Much bigger change that that caused by in-home high CO2 air.

Thus, if high O2 is the goal during a treatment, you are far better off reducing the temperature and doing the work during a high pressure weather pattern than in worrying about the CO2 level in the air you are aerating with.

Would you please show me how high C02, and high oxygen can exist at the same time, with degassing?

 

[CS Reefer]

Dropping the temp by 1 deg C makes a much bigger impact on O2 than aerating with low vs high CO2 air that Cruz recommends. That's how it relates. Maybe neither is important, or maybe both are. I'm just putting it in context for nonchemists.

I don’t see temperature on the chart...what temp does the chart represent, and barometric pressure?

 

[dragon99]

Would you please show me how high C02, and high oxygen can exist at the same time, with degassing?

That chart is alkalinity, pH and CO2, why would you ask questions about O2 and reference that?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would you please show me how high C02, and high oxygen can exist at the same time, with degassing?

Not sure what you mean by "with degassing". Aeration is rarely if ever complete in reef tanks. If it were, there would be no day to night swing in reef tanks. There nearly always is.

I posted one scenario above. I'll repost it and another here:

1. Assume you have a tank that is being aerated with home air that is high in CO2. That keeps pH below about pH 8.2. Same tank at peak of the light cycle has produced enough O2 that the O2 level rises above saturation. This is actually not especially unusual. Many tanks peak pH is below 8.2, and at least some of those are likely to have O2 above saturation at mid afternoon if there is enough photosynthesis going on.

2. Same scenario as above, but CO2 is added from a CaCO3/CO2 reactor. That keeps pH below about pH 8.2. Same tank at peak of the light cycle has produced enough O2 that the O2 level rises above saturation. This too is not especially unusual. Many tanks peak pH is below 8.2, and at least some of those are likely to have O2 above saturation at mid afternoon if there is enough photosynthesis going on.

There's really no need for these to be untrue. The sources and sinks of CO2 and O2 are not completely tied together in these systems.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t see temperature on the chart...what temp does the chart represent, and barometric pressure?

How does it matter? I'd have to go back into my notes and see how I made it long, long ago. If I told you an answer, what would you use it for?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Actually, i can answer now that the barometric pressure means nothing in that chart because the CO2 is already represented by a pressure. The pressure contributed by O2 and N2 that make up the remainder of the barometric pressure have zero effect.

 

[merereef]

That phosphoric acid will boost phosphate and lower alk, but both effects will be quite small.

Not sure on the phenacetin. It is an active drug, but will be very dilute when added to a reef tank.

Thank you randy would you say its safe to dose in my tank then?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you randy would you say its safe to dose in my tank then?

I can't be sure, but if I wanted H2O2 and didn't have other alternatives, I'd probably try it. I might try slowly at first.

 

[merereef]

I can't be sure, but if I wanted H2O2 and didn't have other alternatives, I'd probably try it. I might try slowly at first.

i see many people claim walmart hydrogen peroxide works and i see it has stabalisers in it but never states which ones.. people use it fine so i guess should be ok. Anyway randy thansk for all your help with everything.

 

[Dan_P]

i see many people claim walmart hydrogen peroxide works and i see it has stabalisers in it but never states which ones.. people use it fine so i guess should be ok. Anyway randy thansk for all your help with everything.

When you add 1 mL 3% H2O2 in 10 gallons, the concentration is about 1 ppm H2O2. The phosphoric acid stabilizer lowers the pH to minimze disproportionation of H2O2 to water and oxygen, so there is much, much less than 1 ppm added to the system. Go for it.

By the way, 1 ppm H2O2 lasts about one hour in my fish only system but is stable in a sample of the tank water overnight. Whatever is consuming it seems to be on the systems surfaces.

 

[merereef]

When you add 1 mL 3% H2O2 in 10 gallons, the concentration is about 1 ppm H2O2. The phosphoric acid stabilizer lowers the pH to minimze disproportionation of H2O2 to water and oxygen, so there is much, much less than 1 ppm added to the system. Go for it.

By the way, 1 ppm H2O2 lasts about one hour in my fish only system but is stable in a sample of the tank water overnight. Whatever is consuming it seems to be on the systems surfaces.

Thank you for your help i will dose to ight to see if i can get rid of those pesky dinos

 

[Dan_P]

Not sure what you mean by "with degassing". Aeration is rarely if ever complete in reef tanks. If it were, there would be no day to night swing in reef tanks. There nearly always is.

I posted one scenario above. I'll repost it and another here:

1. Assume you have a tank that is being aerated with home air that is high in CO2. That keeps pH below about pH 8.2. Same tank at peak of the light cycle has produced enough O2 that the O2 level rises above saturation. This is actually not especially unusual. Many tanks peak pH is below 8.2, and at least some of those are likely to have O2 above saturation at mid afternoon if there is enough photosynthesis going on.

2. Same scenario as above, but CO2 is added from a CaCO3/CO2 reactor. That keeps pH below about pH 8.2. Same tank at peak of the light cycle has produced enough O2 that the O2 level rises above saturation. This too is not especially unusual. Many tanks peak pH is below 8.2, and at least some of those are likely to have O2 above saturation at mid afternoon if there is enough photosynthesis going on.

There's really no need for these to be untrue. The sources and sinks of CO2 and O2 are not completely tied together in these systems.

Just an observation for those not reading the references. The information coming from waste water treatment studies involves continuous flow stirred reactors (CFSTR). These are stirred reactors that have a continuous input of waste water and a continuous outflow of purified water. The flow of dirty water coming in is adjusted to maintain a certain purity in the reactor. The temperature, pH, oxygen level, amount of organic carbon, etc. must be known and adjusted to make kinetics of the digeser work at a practical rate.

An aquarium is not a CFSTR and it is unlikely that we can know enough about the contents of our aquarium systems to even mimic one. The CFSTR studies inform us about the important factors of aerobic digestion by bacteria and other microorganisms, but we can only go so far in controlling those conditions in an aquarium. The biggest thing not in our control is the reaction space.

In a CFSTR there is a continuously stirred suspension of grunge being digested and the conditions of that suspension can be known through measurements of temperature, pH, oxygen, etc. in our aquarium systems, the majority of grunge is located on and in surfaces and the spaces between substrate grains. The pH and oxygen levels are likely highly variable, and dependent on the location of the grunge. Highly variable conditions and highly variable types and amounts of grunge probably characterize our systems. Process control of an aerobic digester of this type of system would be a nightmare if it was your job.

I feel the science of aerobic digesters teaches us much about grunge digestion. I am not sure we can apply it to aquarium systems in a straightforward manner. I do appreciate the pioneers attempting to do just that and the pioneers taking a closer look at it in the lab.

 

[Idoc]

Question concerning the Elegant Corals Dino Recipe... @taricha @Cruz_Arias

I'm assuming this idea doesn't actually kill any amphidinium dinos, but rather starves them off by taking away their detritus food source that they (and cyano) feed on. So, where do the dinos go? Do they actually die off or do they just encyst and hide in the sand until the next piece of detritus gets into the sand bed?

I have everything ready to give this recipe a try... just hesitant to pull the trigger for some reason.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Question concerning the Elegant Corals Dino Recipe... @taricha @Cruz_Arias

I'm assuming this idea doesn't actually kill any amphidinium dinos, but rather starves them off by taking away their detritus food source that they (and cyano) feed on. So, where do the dinos go? Do they actually die off or do they just encyst and hide in the sand until the next piece of detritus gets into the sand bed?

I have everything ready to give this recipe a try... just hesitant to pull the trigger for some reason.

At least get the aeration going...
It's hypothesized that the dinoflagellates are outcompeted and the dying or weakened ones are consumed (digested) by the aerobic sludge digesting bacteria that have been "turbo charged" by the vodka and increased dissolved o2 levels.

For Day 0 use Randy's CO2 to Alkalinity chart to verify lower CO2 levels in the water. If there's still a low pH to Alkalinity relationship, verify that fresh air is being utilized to both your skimmer and the air pump.

 

[taricha]

Would you please show me how high C02, and high oxygen can exist at the same time, with degassing?

I can strongly aerate my tank with indoor air from a classroom and get water pCO2 to ~1500ppm and measure a dissolved O2 of over 90% of max at the same time (not saying it was good). It's the below scenario Randy mentioned. The two gasses really can move independently.

1. Assume you have a tank that is being aerated with home air that is high in CO2. That keeps pH below about pH 8.2. Same tank at peak of the light cycle has produced enough O2 that the O2 level rises above saturation. This is actually not especially unusual. Many tanks peak pH is below 8.2, and at least some of those are likely to have O2 above saturation at mid afternoon if there is enough photosynthesis going on.

 

[taricha]

Question concerning the Elegant Corals Dino Recipe... @taricha @Cruz_Arias

I'm assuming this idea doesn't actually kill any amphidinium dinos, but rather starves them off by taking away their detritus food source that they (and cyano) feed on. So, where do the dinos go? Do they actually die off or do they just encyst and hide in the sand until the next piece of detritus gets into the sand bed?

I have everything ready to give this recipe a try... just hesitant to pull the trigger for some reason.

I can't give you a mechanism I feel confident about for how this actually kills dinos. I do know that of our dinos, common amphidinium are most tied to the goodies of the sandbed. And they are also the least light dependent and the most able to survive as bacteriavores if kept in the dark.
This method would disrupt both the organics in the sandbed, and probably overwhelm and replace the normal bacterial associates of these dinos. There are papers that show that when the normal bacterial associates of dinos decline and unrelated bacteria increase, then dino populations suffer - become less toxic and decline in number.

I also think that it's likely Waste Away digests dino mucus, which would further disrupt their environment and ability to acquire food.

I'd definitely try this method right now on sandbed dinos, even without me knowing the precise mechanism of the dinos demise.

 

[Idoc]

For Day 0 use Randy's CO2 to Alkalinity chart to verify lower CO2 levels in the water. If there's still a low pH to Alkalinity relationship, verify that fresh air is being utilized to both your skimmer and the air pump.

My before treatment stats:
pH - 8.46
Alk - 9.1 dKH (3.25 Meq/L)
Cal - 380 ppm
NO3 - 5 ppm
PO4 - 0.043 ppm

I wasn't able to start the aeration of the tank tonight. My air pump is too small and can't push the needed air through 3 lines (2 to wooden airstones, 1 to skimmer). So, I'll have to look into a bigger air pump now!

 

[Idoc]

And they are also the least light dependent and the most able to survive as bacteriavores if kept in the dark.

Thank you for your response. This makes sense... In my coral quarantine tank (not the tank I'm planning to use the Elegant Coral recipe on), I performed a 5.5 day total blackout while dosing 2mL H2O2 (20g tank) twice a day... when I opened the blackout, the tank was clean but the water was cloudy. I now believe the amphidinium dinos had entered the water column to make that haze... they were back in full force within 3 days! Im wondering if running a UV sterilizer during the extended (5-9 days) blackout would wipe them out if they are in the column? I don't have a UV sterilizer yet to try though

 

[taricha]

Thank you for your response. This makes sense... In my coral quarantine tank (not the tank I'm planning to use the Elegant Coral recipe on), I performed a 5.5 day total blackout while dosing 2mL H2O2 (20g tank) twice a day... when I opened the blackout, the tank was clean but the water was cloudy. I now believe the amphidinium dinos had entered the water column to make that haze... they were back in full force within 3 days! Im wondering if running a UV sterilizer during the extended (5-9 days) blackout would wipe them out if they are in the column? I don't have a UV sterilizer yet to try though

Some do, but common large cell amphidinium go down into the sand rather than swimming in the water. The effect looks the same. The sand clears temporarily.
UV is good to have in general vs dinos.

 

[Smarkow]

Surgeon here. Reading this at 1am waiting for the OR to get ready, thinking mostly about “Office Space” where the guy says “I deal with the G****** customers so the engineers don’t have to... I have people skills.”

So now, we'll call it bacterial "surrounding" of the dinoflagellates. If that's more acceptable, @neilp2006

I'll take your lead in your field of expertise, you're probably more experienced at this level of taxonomy and interactions.

It was explained to me by a micro-biologist in the field that the "bugs consumed other bugs and digested them"

If I am incorrect, I stand corrected.

Regards,

Thank you for sharing that paper. @Cruz_Arias . It was an interesting read. I am not familiar with those types of bacteria and I find it very interesting. I am more familiar with human illness causing bacteria.
I think Neil that the article was congruent with what you said. it clearly used terms such as lysis, attachment, ect. and it did use the term wolf pack to describe a predatory tactic of bacteria. multiple cells ganging upon prey cell, or cells. A single cell did not engulf another cell. It does not use the terms macrophage or phagocytosis which are very specific biological terms, with very specific meaning, as you already stated.
it is a matter of nomenclature. an unintentional misuse of a term by someone along the way.
I read a very interesting statement by Dr. Tim regarding his avoidance of these types of threads. His reasons for avoiding them were very solid and hilarious. If I can find it will send it to you. to sum it up. He earned his doctorate with his study of bacteria, and he is not going to argue with every ones google doctorate. He said it much nicer though.
I get into this very situation with patients. The doctor lays out a medical plan of care, shares tests results, ect asks if anyone has any questions, they say "no" then he leaves. They usually ask me what that all meant. LOL. Then later I get to hear the family and patient telling other family members what the doctor said. Then I get to explain again what everything means. finding ways to explain medical talk in ways that non medical folks understand is my specialty. lol. that is just a joke folks.