Apex - ATO ties to PH

[bdeppen]

I recently started using Kalk in my ATO. The problem is my system has naturally been on the high end of the ph scale. I have the alarm set to notify if oh spikes, but I’d also like to automate shutting the ATO down for 60 mins if the alarm comes on. Will the following code achieve those?

Fallback OFF
Set ON
If Output ReturnPump = OFF Then OFF
Defer 004:00 Then ON
If Output Alarm = ON Then OFF
defer 060:00

 

[CuzzA]

I recently started using Kalk in my ATO. The problem is my system has naturally been on the high end of the ph scale. I have the alarm set to notify if oh spikes, but I’d also like to automate shutting the ATO down for 60 mins if the alarm comes on. Will the following code achieve those?

Fallback OFF
Set ON
If Output ReturnPump = OFF Then OFF
Defer 004:00 Then ON
If Output Alarm = ON Then OFF
defer 060:00

No, change the "If Output Alarm =" to something specific, like:

If pH > 8.5 Then OFF
Defer 060:00 Then ON

Using the alarm output would shut down the unit for any alarm, which would work, but there could be current or future alarm conditions where you would still want to top off.

 

[Amado]

Using your ATO to dose kalk to the tank is not a good idea. It will be very hard for you to keep it stable. The range of water that will evaporate will change with Time. It’s always best to dose kalk with its own reactor. Kalk also with destroy your ATO pump in time.

 

[bdeppen]

No, change the "If Output Alarm =" to something specific, like:

If pH > 8.5 Then OFF
Defer 060:00 Then ON

Using the alarm output would shut down the unit for any alarm, which would work, but there could be current or future alarm conditions where you would still want to top off.

Awesome, thank you!

Using your ATO to dose kalk to the tank is not a good idea. It will be very hard for you to keep it stable. The range of water that will evaporate will change with Time. It’s always best to dose kalk with its own reactor. Kalk also with destroy your ATO pump in time.

This all sounds like reasonable advise however I have 2 questions.

1. My mix ratio is 1/4tsp per gallon which I’d super low. Also this of a soft tank. Only dissing to Stabilize alk for Coraline growth. So is it that detrimental?
2. Why do I see this recommended so much but have never heard of others having the above issues. If I were doing an SPS tank or even LPS and using Kalk to keep up with coral intake I can understand where those issues would be more relevant

I am not trying to say you were wrong, just playing devils advocate so I can better understand the pros and cons

 

[Amado]

In a reef tank you need stability.
it doesn’t matter what kind of fish or corals.
stability is the key. If you only have a softy tank you shouldn’t need to dose anything.
Test you alk/ calcium/ magnesium and see what are your corals using. Don’t dose something because other people are doing it. Make sure your tank needs it.

kalk is really hard on pumps so with time it will destroy the pump. If that’s ok with you then go ahead. They have other solutions that are more cleaner for dosing kalk.

you really can’t control how much tank water will evaporate or when the evaporation will happen. You don’t want kalk just sitting in the ato reserve without being stirred.

 

[CuzzA]

The problem with using an ATO is you have no control over the dose. Take for example the high ph you're experiencing. That leads me to believe you have high calcium and alkalinity. Coraline algae is not going to outpace the kalk from an ATO. Consequently you eventually will have a precipitation event.

You would be far better off making a gravity fed stil and maybe just dripping at night to keep the ph up. Nevertheless, for a soft coral tank, water changes alone should keep parameters in check.

 

[bdeppen]

The problem with using an ATO is you have no control over the dose. Take for example the high ph you're experiencing. That leads me to believe you have high calcium and alkalinity. Coraline algae is not going to outpace the kalk from an ATO. Consequently you eventually will have a precipitation event.

You would be far better off making a gravity fed stil and maybe just dripping at night to keep the ph up. Nevertheless, for a soft coral tank, water changes alone should keep parameters in check.

That was my initial assumption however from testing Bailey I am noticing roughly a 1DKH drop and compensating with roughly 60 ML of two-part solution

 

[CuzzA]

Why do I see this recommended so much but have never heard of others having the above issues.

Keep in mind there's a lot of good advice in this hobby and equally bad advice. Often the bad advice or suggestions come from people without a lot of experience. They heard one person do it, so they do it and tell the next person. However, when the system fails they never come back to report their failures.

 

[bdeppen]

this wasn’t the initial direction of my post so unfortunately I do not have all my test results in front of me but I can post them when I get home from work. Hopefully seeing test results will give you insight on what I am seeing and possibly find a better solution

 

[CuzzA]

That was my initial assumption however from testing Bailey I am noticing roughly a 1DKH drop and compensating with roughly 60 ML of two-part solution

Probably because you're precipitating calcium. You know your system though, so if you're confident you need it, then do it, but keep in mind the risks.

 

[bdeppen]

Probably because you're precipitating calcium. You know your system though, so if you're confident you need it, then do it, but keep in mind the risks.

Actually I am still learning the system as it is newer. I am just totally confused as to why I was seeing a 1DKH drop daily before I was dozing anything.
Any thoughts?

 

[ca1ore]

I’ve used a kalk stirrer on my ATO for years, though primarily as a pH boost. Doesn’t materially add minerals. When I first set it up I ran dual ATO pumps - one through the kalk reactor when pH was below 8.3 and one bypassing the reactor when ph was at or above 8.3. Ended up mostly unnecessary because my tank never hits 8.3. I still run two, though for redundancy rather than pH control.

 

[Sweet Reef Corals]

I recently started using Kalk in my ATO. The problem is my system has naturally been on the high end of the ph scale. I have the alarm set to notify if oh spikes, but I’d also like to automate shutting the ATO down for 60 mins if the alarm comes on. Will the following code achieve those?

Fallback OFF
Set ON
If Output ReturnPump = OFF Then OFF
Defer 004:00 Then ON
If Output Alarm = ON Then OFF
defer 060:00

I’m just curious, why would you start dosing kalk if you already have high pH?

 

[bdeppen]

I’m just curious, why would you start dosing kalk if you already have high pH?

Below recaps my past week. Maybe it was correct, maybe it wasn't but overall am looking for some sound advise on what to do next. Thanks again to everyone for commenting and trying to help out.

After a series of testing my alk, I noticed it was dropping 1dkh daily. Keep in mind, at this point I was not dosing anything. Strictly water changes every sunday of 15G on a 45G system. I use hw marinemix salt and mix it to 1.26.

19th-5.9dkh
dosed 165ml (split up throughout the day slowly)
test again 7.7dkh

21st-7.156dkh
dosed 60ml
test again 8.106dkh

22nd-7.156dkh
dosed 60ml
added 1.5tsp to 4 gallons of top off

23nd-7.49dkh

25th - 6.429dkh

 

[bdeppen]

And this because, well pictures!!

 

[CuzzA]

Below recaps my past week. Maybe it was correct, maybe it wasn't but overall am looking for some sound advise on what to do next. Thanks again to everyone for commenting and trying to help out.

After a series of testing my alk, I noticed it was dropping 1dkh daily. Keep in mind, at this point I was not dosing anything. Strictly water changes every sunday of 15G on a 45G system. I use hw marinemix salt and mix it to 1.26.

19th-5.9dkh
dosed 165ml (split up throughout the day slowly)
test again 7.7dkh

21st-7.156dkh
dosed 60ml
test again 8.106dkh

22nd-7.156dkh
dosed 60ml
added 1.5tsp to 4 gallons of top off

23nd-7.49dkh

25th - 6.429dkh

I think you have a bad test kit, amigo. Have you tested freshly mixed water? Could be bad salt mix, but I'm leaning toward your kit being bad. There's no way your water was 5.9 dkh and virtually impossible to experience the kind of drops you're seeing in this system.

 

[bdeppen]

I think you have a bad test kit, amigo. Have you tested freshly mixed water? Could be bad salt mix, but I'm leaning toward your kit being bad. There's no way your water was 5.9 dkh and virtually impossible to experience the kind of drops you're seeing in this system.

Just did a test on my fresh mixed water and it came out to 120ppm (6.909 dkh) and retested the tank water to 118ppm (6.597 dkh).

I am going to do my water change today, top off with fresh water only and continue testing this week to see where I land.

(Also @CuzzA I checked out your build thread, you have quite an amazing setup going!)

 

[CuzzA]

Just did a test on my fresh mixed water and it came out to 120ppm (6.909 dkh) and retested the tank water to 118ppm (6.597 dkh).

I am going to do my water change today, top off with fresh water only and continue testing this week to see where I land.

(Also @CuzzA I checked out your build thread, you have quite an amazing setup going!)

Thank you. I'm still tweaking things here and there to get it dialed in, but so far so good.

Something is going on here. Bad salt or bad test kit. I think you need to get to the bottom of this. Hw marine should be mixing to 8.7-9.7. I'd take a sample to a fellow reefer or LFS to have it tested and compare results.

 

[NS Mike D]

follow the directions on the salt package for mixing. Add the salt to the water not the other way around. Add a heater and small pump to aid in mixing and temp. Check the salinity and adjust. Also, pH is affected by the ambient air .

I confess my ATO is kalkwasser. I do need to adjust the mix seasonally as in the dry of winter evaporation is nearly twice as fast as in the summer. But I don't see swings intraday or day to day.

BUT, if my ATO sensor gets stuck between cleanings, as it does from time-to-time due to lime build up), I'm screwed. (but not so much as I simplified my tank with hardier corals).

My regular maintenance includes removing my pump and lines and recirculating a white vinegar solution.

If I had the room and wanted to spend the money, I would add a two part doser to my system in lieu of kalkwasser.

 

[bdeppen]

follow the directions on the salt package for mixing. Add the salt to the water not the other way around. Add a heater and small pump to aid in mixing and temp. Check the salinity and adjust. Also, pH is affected by the ambient air .

I confess my ATO is kalkwasser. I do need to adjust the mix seasonally as in the dry of winter evaporation is nearly twice as fast as in the summer. But I don't see swings intraday or day to day.

BUT, if my ATO sensor gets stuck between cleanings, as it does from time-to-time due to lime build up), I'm screwed. (but not so much as I simplified my tank with hardier corals).

My regular maintenance includes removing my pump and lines and recirculating a white vinegar solution.

If I had the room and wanted to spend the money, I would add a two part doser to my system in lieu of kalkwasser.

Great advise! I am actually good with my mixing station setup and following the directions for mixing my salt. I am going to go with @CuzzA advise and stop doing kalk all together. I've ordered new reagents for my Hanna checker. If I continue to have low readings, next step is to have a fellow reefer test my water. (I don't really have many reefers close by that I am aware of) If I still have issues I will have to try a different salt.