Are antibiotics a tool in reefing?

[twentyleagues]

I just did a cipro treatment on my tank. I brought bjd in on a frogspawn colony that I thought I got a great deal on about a year ago. The coral died eventually from bjd with in a few weeks. I tried all kinds of treatments to save it, nothing worked and I was afraid to use antibiotics. Then torches started getting it stuff I had grown from 1 head to 10+ started loosing heads one by one. I finally bit the bullet and got some cipro and treated in a tank separately. They would start to rebound and look better with in days but a couple weeks later would start to die again. I finally took all "euphyllia" type corals out of my tank and treated in a qt tank for 6 days. That seemed to have fixed the issue until I lost power a few weeks ago. Stuff started with the bjd again. I was very hesitant to treat the whole tank but decided its going in the very wrong direction "hail mary". All the euphyllia in the tank look so much better flesh bands have doubled in size extension is great. I did a pretty aggressive treatment according to all the info I had found. I used 2 500mg pills in 100ml water. System volume is roughly 120g of actual water, so using the math they had in one thread I found, I dosed 6 ml of the liquid daily for 7 days. The day after the treatment ended I turned my skimmer back on and added some carbon, the next day I did a 35g water change. I have heard bright light helps to break the cipro down like someone said above how much light and how bright is needed I dont know, my reef is pretty bright though. I think the wide spread use of antibiotics in chickens and cattle is probably way more damaging than what I just did even if the cipro wasnt degraded. I do think about what I did and its possible impact on the environment though. I see no negative impact on my tank or its inhabitants only positive so far. Looking back at pics during the last year corals looked ok possibly even good but had so so polyp extension and very small shrunken flesh bands compared to now. I take this as it was exactly what I should have done then.

 

[Pistondog]

I just did a cipro treatment on my tank. I brought bjd in on a frogspawn colony that I thought I got a great deal on about a year ago. The coral died eventually from bjd with in a few weeks. I tried all kinds of treatments to save it, nothing worked and I was afraid to use antibiotics. Then torches started getting it stuff I had grown from 1 head to 10+ started loosing heads one by one. I finally bit the bullet and got some cipro and treated in a tank separately. They would start to rebound and look better with in days but a couple weeks later would start to die again. I finally took all "euphyllia" type corals out of my tank and treated in a qt tank for 6 days. That seemed to have fixed the issue until I lost power a few weeks ago. Stuff started with the bjd again. I was very hesitant to treat the whole tank but decided its going in the very wrong direction "hail mary". All the euphyllia in the tank look so much better flesh bands have doubled in size extension is great. I did a pretty aggressive treatment according to all the info I had found. I used 2 500mg pills in 100ml water. System volume is roughly 120g of actual water, so using the math they had in one thread I found, I dosed 6 ml of the liquid daily for 7 days. The day after the treatment ended I turned my skimmer back on and added some carbon, the next day I did a 35g water change. I have heard bright light helps to break the cipro down like someone said above how much light and how bright is needed I dont know, my reef is pretty bright though. I think the wide spread use of antibiotics in chickens and cattle is probably way more damaging than what I just did even if the cipro wasnt degraded. I do think about what I did and its possible impact on the environment though. I see no negative impact on my tank or its inhabitants only positive so far. Looking back at pics during the last year corals looked ok possibly even good but had so so polyp extension and very small shrunken flesh bands compared to now. I take this as it was exactly what I should have done then.

Glad you stopped it. Difficult to say if the frogspawn brought it in, or if it was stressed in transport and susceptible to an existing condition in your tank.
I have caused bjd by accidental mechanical damage in torches before.
Thanks for sharing your treatment regimen. Thats pretty agressive and good to know.

Edit:' normal' dose is 0.5mg per gallon after lights out, on days 1 3, and 5. Dissolve 500mg pill in 500ml rodi, 62.5 ml dosed 3 times into 125g total system volume, as above.

 

[Miami Reef]

Thank you @twentyleagues for sharing your experience. It helps to know what works for people.

 

[Koty]

i tried the tm bacto balance and also had bjd, more than once.
i dont think you can help only good bacteria with carbon dosing.

Agree that is why I use UV

 

[twentyleagues]

Glad you stopped it. Difficult to say if the frogspawn brought it in, or if it was stressed in transport and susceptible to an existing condition in your tank.
I have caused bjd by accidental mechanical damage in torches before.
Thanks for sharing your treatment regimen. Thats pretty agressive and good to know.

This is true. I do not know for sure. I feel like with the way my corals looked and grew before that frogspwn was introduced and how they healed from accidental fish damage that was what brought it in. I could be wrong as I have added bottled bacteria and corals from various places so I could have introduced the infection at anytime.

 

[FishTruck]

There are a few situations where the hobbyist can clearly and accurately identify a particular organism that is causing a problem, and a targeted anti-microbial agent will likely solve the problem... or at least get things under control until the root of the problem is dealt with.

Cyanobacteria is the best example that I can think of and I am glad to have access to chemiclean when I need it!

 

[Koty]

Not sure you guys know what kind of long term damage you are doing using an antibiotic used to treat human diseases. Also it seem some are actually although unintentionally select for cipro resistance coral pathogens.

 

[Pistondog]

Not sure you guys know what kind of long term damage you are doing using an antibiotic used to treat human diseases. Also it seem some are actually although unintentionally select for cipro resistance coral pathogens.

I know It stops the progression of bjd in my tank. I think we are a very small percent of cipro abusers, perhaps contributing to some effect some way.
We all use antibiotics as prescribed by md's and abused in the farming industry.
Are you saying we are contributing to drug resistant bacteria?
I agree, but we are a drop in the ocean.

 

[twentyleagues]

Not sure you guys know what kind of long term damage you are doing using an antibiotic used to treat human diseases. Also it seem some are actually although unintentionally select for cipro resistance coral pathogens.

The cipro I used is from an online retailer and it says fish cipro on it do not use for humans. I know its the same thing. Having many friends in the medical field for both humans and animals I have had this conversation before. My exsister in-law is a pharmacist (human) and has filled scripts from vets and has made topicals prescribed for vets for dogs cats and reptiles, all using human grade meds.

 

[Miami Reef]

I don't recall suggesting anyone misuse them. I am very well aware of antibiotic resistance issues, having worked on antimicrobial therapeutics for people for a number of years.

I think your ire for abuse of antibiotics ought to be focused on the millions of wasted doses for people with viruses, rather than the hundreds of them used for anemones.

Randy shared a lot of opinions in this thread. In this case, it was about anemones.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what’s-the-difference-between-cipro-and-amoxicillin.1081176/

 

[pooootiqe]

Koty made a good point on the risk of developing resistance. I agree that unless the situation is dire, QT or dips would be much better for one or few corals (that can be removed). Also it should go without saying that antibiotics should never be used for “maintaining tank health” in the form of periodic dosing…

 

[Miami Reef]

Also it should go without saying that antibiotics should never be used for “maintaining tank health” in the form of periodic dosing…

Yes. I agree wholeheartedly.

I reserve tank antibiotics (cipro) for when corals are having bacterial issues and water quality, flow, lighting, ICP, and additives have been ruled out as culprits.

 

[ReneReef]

I get the concern, but reefers using microgram doses in closed systems aren’t significantly driving antibiotic resistance — agriculture and human overuse are.

Corals are living animals, and their health matters too.

If we waited for perfect knowledge before treating anything, we wouldn’t have medicine, reef tanks, or even basic husbandry practice IMO.

Curious if anyone here has successfully beaten STN or BJD without antibiotics. What worked for you?

No. Your first reasoning is a fallacy. That there are bigger problems in the world does not matter at all. That does not mean we are exempt us from any responsibility.

Yes corals are living animals. However, currently society and laws see invertebrates as lesser animals. So you are entering an ethics discussion here and the risk-benefit consideration will likely be different.

Not wanting to wait is not an argument to start playing amateur pharmacist and irresponsibly experiment with antibiotics.

And your last argument is a fallacy again. All or nothing reasoning.

 

[Miami Reef]

If we waited for perfect knowledge before treating anything, we wouldn’t have medicine, reef tanks, or even basic husbandry practice IMO.

And your last argument is a fallacy again. All or nothing reasoning.

What about the Nirvana Fallacy:

Comparing a realistic solution with an idealized one, and discounting or even dismissing the realistic solution as a result of comparing to a “perfect world” or impossible standard, ignoring the fact that improvements are often good enough reason.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Nirvana-Fallacy

Not wanting to wait is not an argument to start playing amateur pharmacist and irresponsibly experiment with antibiotics.

I believe it is. Waiting will result in mass casualties. Antibiotics won’t work if you don’t catch the infection early enough, for humans and animals.

 

[jonelder68]

Every action has a reaction. Pros vs cons. The great debate :)

 

[Subsea]

There is nothing wrong with appropriate use of antibiotics.

If a qualified person has determined the type of bacteria, and prescribed an antibiotic dosage regimen that targets that pathogen all is good.

Problems arise with the indiscriminate use of those drugs by folks who just use a scattergun approach of hitting the whole tank with a slew of antibiotics hoping that something will work.

Which is pretty much how they're used in the USA.

As I said in my earlier post, in many countries antibiotics can only be prescribed by a doctor or a vet - they are not available off the shelf in an LFS.

I strongly feel that USA reef hobbyists that are uneducated on pharmaceuticals are quick to use antibiotics as a shotgun approach. I did it with flatworm exit and created flatworms immune to flatworm exit. I broke tank down and bleached it.

 

[ingchr1]

...Most of us aren’t dumping antibiotics recklessly; we’re using them sparingly, when we’ve run out of other options...

Seams like wishful thinking that the hobby is doing this as a whole.