Are designer clownfish more likely to die early?

[Rollthedicereef]

My Black Storm Trooper Clown died yesterday. I'd had her for 3 years. She appeared totally fine and healthy, ate like a pig and was the boss of the tank. There were no signs of disease or attack (No fish would try attacking her and I quarantine and pre-treat all my fish before they enter the tank) and all the other fish are fine including her mate (who is a common clownfish purchased 3 years ago too).

It got me thinking with the popularity of designer clownfish and their relative genetic newness to existence, where they are bred primarily for appearance over health/longevity genetics, have other people found them to be a little weaker or more short lived than the natural common clownfish?

For sure there are many reasons a fish can die, but designer clownfish have only been around for a decade or so, which means we don't have the full data to see if they generally can be expected to live as long as a "natural" clownfish. I was just curious what other peoples longer term experiences with designer clowns have been?

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

My mocha picasso's are 4 years old now, so they can live longer than 3 years. Sorry but I hope that what you say is not true, I'd hate to lose my clowns.

 

[Reefer Matt]

My Black Storm Trooper Clown died yesterday. I'd had her for 3 years. She appeared totally fine and healthy, ate like a pig and was the boss of the tank. There were no signs of disease or attack (No fish would try attacking her and I quarantine and pre-treat all my fish before they enter the tank) and all the other fish are fine including her mate (who is a common clownfish purchased 3 years ago too).

It got me thinking with the popularity of designer clownfish and their relative genetic newness to existence, where they are bred primarily for appearance over health/longevity genetics, have other people found them to be a little weaker or more short lived than the natural common clownfish?

For sure there are many reasons a fish can die, but designer clownfish have only been around for a decade or so, which means we don't have the full data to see if they generally can be expected to live as long as a "natural" clownfish. I was just curious what other peoples longer term experiences with designer clowns have been?

From my understanding, the "designer" clowns are just regular clownfish bred with other regular clownfish. When a desirable trait is found, that trait is kept by selective breeding. Now if that selective breeding causes genetic defects, which in turn causes lower lifespans, I don't know. Hard to prove it either way I guess. Sorry for your loss, clowns are awesome.

 

[SNAKEMANVET]

I had a pair of black ice for 10 years,The female jumped out the male / now female is 12 years old.

 

[Dom]

From my understanding, the "designer" clowns are just regular clownfish bred with other regular clownfish. When a desirable trait is found, that trait is kept by selective breeding. Now if that selective breeding causes genetic defects, which in turn causes lower lifespans, I don't know. Hard to prove it either way I guess. Sorry for your loss, clowns are awesome.

Agreed.

Calling clownfish "designer" is just a marketing scheme in my view. As Matt pointed out, They are just two regular clownfish bread together for a trait. I see no reason why this should impact life span unless continued inbreeding for the desired trait impacts their life expectancy.

I am sorry you suffered this loss. Fish are pets and for me, it hurts just like losing the dog.

 

[The_Paradox]

I think if anyone wanted to do a study they would need a lot of bounty conditions and should probably look at captive breed vs wild caught not “designer” if the goal was to examine the relationship between genetic diversity and longevity.

 

[exnisstech]

Agreed.

Calling clownfish "designer" is just a marketing scheme in my view. As Matt pointed out, They are just two regular clownfish bread together for a trait. I see no reason why this should impact life span unless continued inbreeding for the desired trait impacts their life expectancy.

This is pretty much the same thing they do to develop certain traits in dogs. Hopefully it doesn't shorten the fishes life span. It has not with canines that I'm aware of.

 

[The_Paradox]

This is pretty much the same thing they do to develop certain traits in dogs. Hopefully it doesn't shorten the fishes life span. It has not with canines that I'm aware of.

Genetic diversity most certainly has an effect on lifespan as well as prevalence of genetic disorders.

Inbreeding Effects

On lifespan

www.instituteofcaninebiology.org

 

[exnisstech]

Genetic diversity most certainly has an effect on lifespan as well as prevalence of genetic disorders.

Inbreeding Effects

On lifespan

www.instituteofcaninebiology.org

I stand corrected. Thank you for the info.

 

[Boehmtown]

Sometimes you just get a bum fish, most of the things we keep are food for something else. The ocean is metal. Every clutch has cull's , not out of the question that yours just had some unseen defect.

 

[The_Paradox]

I stand corrected. Thank you for the info.

Not a problem. I think most owners tend not to think about it so the effects of inbreeding are marginalized probably for good reason. A quick scan of “latest post” shows a whole host of emergencies that involve someone doing something completely idiotic and asking, “why did my fish die in two days”.

 

[Tavero]

Genetic diversity most certainly has an effect on lifespan as well as prevalence of genetic disorders.

Inbreeding Effects

On lifespan

www.instituteofcaninebiology.org

That's not necessary true. Genetic diversity only has an effect on lifespan if undesirable traits for survival are selected. Expressed genetic disorders do increase if they are autosomal recessive but the chance for genetic mutations and damage doesnt. Autosomal dominant inherited traits also have the same frequency to be expressed. This means an inbeed animal that has no visible disorders in its phenotype, has healthy/intact genes.

Excessive inbreeding leads to the inability to adapt to a fast changing environment/parameters.
Excessive outbreeding leads to the accumulation of hidden recessive gene defects.

The existence of species rests on a metastable equilibrium between inbreeding and outbreeding. An essay on the close relationship between speciation, inbreeding and recessive mutations

Speciation corresponds to the progressive establishment of reproductive barriers between groups of individuals derived from an ancestral stock. Since Darwin did not believe that reproductive barriers could be selected for, he proposed that most events ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

TLDR: if unhealthy traits like a deformed nose in a pug are selected that keeps it from breathing, of course it will have effects on health, but if the animal looks healthy than it probably is.

 

[FishTruck]

I have a pair over 10 years old. Black ice or storm ice - can't remember what they are called.

 

[Rollthedicereef]

This is pretty much the same thing they do to develop certain traits in dogs. Hopefully it doesn't shorten the fishes life span. It has not with canines that I'm aware of.

There have been many traits that have been bred into certain dog breeds that shortens their life spans and/or results in them being more likely yo get certain diseases and conditions. That's one of the reasons it got me thinking about designer clownfish, they are bred with aesthetics as the most important genetic markers - so when pairing clowns to get new versions it's not necessarily the most healthy (in terms of longevity/hardiness/health) that are selected to breed, it's the "best/most interesting looking" that are selected.

Of course they have to have a base level of health genetics and no deformities but the focus is on how they look, not how diverse and strong the genetic makeup/background is.

It's just something that got me thinking.

 

[PotatoPig]

I see no reason why this should impact life span unless continued inbreeding for the desired trait impacts their life expectancy.

Based on dog breeding - when aesthetics are the primary/only selection criteria the resulting breeds do tend to wind up with noted health concerns, and the same trend even translates to things like Ball Pythons also.

Hard to say if this applies also to fish, but the logic is there.

 

[aaron186]

My guess is that they probably do have a lower life span in the same way that pure bred dogs have lower life spans typically than a mutt. The designer clowns are essentially made by inbreeding so any genetic issue has the chance to be amplified

 

[Tavero]

My guess is that they probably do have a lower life span in the same way that pure bred dogs have lower life spans typically than a mutt. The designer clowns are essentially made by inbreeding so any genetic issue has the chance to be amplified

Pure bred dogs have a lower life span because the selected traits actively reduce the vitality, not because inbreeding itself is leading to animals with lower vitality.

Small dogs have a lifespan twice as long as large dogs. Reason: their ancestors were on the smaller side themselves and therefore their body can't tolerate the additional weight.

 

[aaron186]

Pure bred dogs have a lower life span because the selected traits actively reduce the vitality, not because inbreeding itself is leading to animals with lower vitality.

Small dogs have a lifespan twice as long as large dogs. Reason: their ancestors were on the smaller side themselves and now their body can't tolerate the additional weight.

this isn’t true. Genetic disorders affecting dogs like hip displasia and congenital heart defects are a direct result of inbreeding and amplification of bad genes

 

[Tavero]

this isn’t true. Genetic disorders affecting dogs like hip displasia and congenital heart defects are a direct result of inbreeding and amplification of bad genes

Are you by chance talking about German Shepards? These breeds reach weights of up to 90 pounds. A century ago they were almost half of that weight. No wonder they get hip and heart issues. Additionally they were actively bread to get this dislocated hip because it was aesthetically favorable.

Inbreeding doesn't amplify these issues. These issues were specifically selected by humans.

 

[The_Paradox]

That's not necessary true. Genetic diversity only has an effect on lifespan if undesirable traits for survival are selected. Expressed genetic disorders do increase if they are autosomal recessive but the chance for genetic mutations and damage doesnt. Autosomal dominant inherited traits also have the same frequency to be expressed. This means an inbeed animalto adapt to a fast changing environment/parameters.
Excessive outbreeding leads to the accumulation of hidden recessive gene

Are you by chance talking about German Shepards? These breeds reach weights of up to 90 pounds. A century ago they were almost half of that weight. No wonder they get hip and heart issues. Additionally they were actively bread to get this dislocated hip because it was aesthetically favorable.

Inbreeding doesn't amplify these issues. They were specifically selected by humans.

I think what they are getting at is unintended consequences.