Automatic Water Changes with Apex using PMUPs

[Rick's Reef]

Hello,

I thought I would share my automatic water changing setup - to get feedback and then also provide an example for anyone who is attempting to do something similar.

First, a little background. I have a DOS system, which I had purchased to do automated water changes. But, after some consideration, I decided to implement a PMUP system instead. Some reasons:

1. I originally planned to have my Kalk reactor with a drip feed but decided I wanted to use the DOS to more closely monitor/control the KW additions.
2. I was concerned about the continuous run time of the DOS for the volume of water changes I planned (this may be unfounded - I know a lot of people use the DOS this way now).
3. Speed - I want to use my waste water from the tank as new water for my quarantine tank as I use the TTM for new arrivals. Yes, I understand the DT must be disease free (it is, new setup) - but I also figure that after 2 weeks of TTM and then 2 weeks of QT time, the fish go to the DT anyway. The PMUPs can do this much quicker than the DOS system.

Ok, so on to my PMUP setup for automated water changes. Here is a list of equipment involved

• Neptune FMM Module (I already had this for my ATO setup).
• Neptune ATK Kit (which has 2 optical sensors, one called ATOHI and one called ATOLO).
• An additional optical sensor, mounted about 4 inches above the ATOHi optical sensor, called FILLHI.
• 2 PMUPs - one in the Sump, called SW_DRAINPUMP and one in my saltwater mix reservoir in the garage, called SW_FILLPUMP.
• 1 Neptune Solenoid. This was a late addition to the plan because when the saltwater reservoir is more than about 60% full, a siphon is created from the fill line. So I had to add this solenoid, which is energized at the same time as the SW_FILLPUMP.

Here are the optical sensors in the return section of my sump:

The manifold of shut-off valves for the lines out to my garage. These lines run about 40 feet up through the attic and then down the wall to a cabinet in the garage, where there is another set of 6 manifolds on that end:

In addition to the PMUPs and sensors listed above, I created 5 virtual outlets to act as controls and variables to manage the water change. They are:

• H2O_CHANGE - used to initiate the water change cycle and control some behaviors during the fill.
• FILL_DONE - used to signal that the fill is completed. I fill first and then drain.
• DRAIN_DONE - used to signal that the drain is completed.
• SW_FILLING - used to indicate that we are filling. The FILLPUMP will activate based on this variable.
• SW_DRAINING - used to indicate that we are draining. The FILLPUMP will activate based on this variable.

Now for the programming:

H2O_CHANGE:
Fallback OFF // Changing is initiated by toggling this ON
Set OFF // and then back to AUTO
If Output SW_Filling = ON Then ON // <-- this code will then keep H2O_CHANGE ON
Defer 020:00 Then OFF // for 20 minutes (a 5 gallon change takes ~10-15m

FILL_DONE:
Set OFF
If FillHi CLOSED Then ON // A fill is complete when the FILLHI sensor is closed
If SWResL CLOSED Then ON // If the saltwater reservoir goes empty, we are done filling
If Output H2O_Change = OFF Then OFF. // When the H2O change timesout, we reset to OFF
Defer 020:00 Then OFF // Make this variable sticky during the change

DRAIN_DONE:
If ATOHi OPEN Then ON // When the water drops to the ATOHI sensor, stop draining
If ATOHi CLOSED Then OFF // Else we are not done draining
If Output SW_Filling = ON Then OFF // If we are filling, we can't be draining...this is for the initial
If Output H2O_Change = OFF Then OFF // cycle start when ATOHi may be open.
Defer 020:00 Then OFF

SW_FILLING:
Fallback OFF
If Output H2O_Change = ON Then ON
If Output H2O_Change = OFF Then OFF
If Output Fill_Done = ON Then OFF // Once we are DONE, we turn off the fill pump/change states

SW_DRAINING:
Fallback OFF
If Output H2O_Change = ON Then ON
If Output H2O_Change = OFF Then OFF
If Output SW_Filling = ON Then OFF
If Output Drain_Done = ON Then OFF // DONE Draining

SW_FILLPUMP:
Fallback OFF
If Output SW_Filling = ON Then ON
If Output Fill_Done = ON Then OFF
If SumpHi CLOSED Then OFF // There is a high Sump float switch safety net

SW_DRAINPUMP:
Fallback OFF
If Output SW_Draining = ON Then ON
If Output Drain_Done = ON Then OFF
If SumpLo CLOSED Then OFF // Low sump float switch safety net (this also turns off return pumps)

Note - in addition to the above programming, the Skimmer also has a program to turn off during water changes because the water level in the sump changes.

So, how does it all work? Well, to start the cycle you simply toggle H2O_CHANGE from AUTO to ON and then about 1 second later back to AUTO. This tracker variable will stay ON because the SW_FILLING variable will set to ON and then the Defer statement will keep it there.

While filling, the controls look like this:

And then after the fill is complete (sorry - FillHi was CLOSED, I swear - the controller switches from fill to drain immediately and I didn't screenshot fast enough to show the FillHi optical switch closed!:

And then after the drain is complete:

With the current placement of the FillHi optical sensor, one cycle changes about 5.3gal. I estimate my total system is about 170g (150g + 20g in the sump), giving a % volume change of 3% so I may try and raise the sensor up another couple of inches and get to 5%. And then I can choose whether to cycle twice in a row to give a 10% water change each week or whether I just want to run it at a higher frequency. Technically, I could trigger a 5% change 2x/week by adding an "ON" state on the H2O_CHANGE at specified time/day of week. I am not 100% there yet, but is something I may add later as I am confident in my failsafes.

One very minor potential gap is that if I trigger the water change when the ATO is at its very lowest point before trigger a freshwater fill, over time my system will get a little bit saltier after evaporation. I have other things I need to do first but I am thinking I will setup another virtual outlet to trigger a forced ATO of freshwater or even better yet, add the FW top-off logic to the existing saltwater change program...hmmmm...that might be even better .

Happy reefing!
Rick

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Neat idea!

 

[BoomCorals]

This is pretty awesome

 

[LoneStarReef]

I am about ready to set up the same system! Been wondering if others were using PMUP’s to do an auto water change. How is the system going so far?

 

[MaddyP]

Excellent programming! You might be able to eliminate a few of the virtual outlets by using a latch instead of redundant virtual outlets. I'm using two latches in my build.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/75g-rimless-crystal-dynamic-build-thread.296722/page-4

Is there a reason you didn't specify Set OFF on some of you virtual outlets? I've seen virtual outlets stick in an undesirable state on power failure if not told to be On/Off.

 

[MaddyP]

Also, Welcom to R2R!!!

 

[iLLwiLL]

Wow, that's pretty cool. I've been thinking about doing some kind of auto waterchanger for a while and really like your layout. I'm wanting to do 10 - 15 gallon water changes once a week with an auto Ro reservoir filler when low, and set up something so exactly 10 or 15 gallons is moved to my mixing tank at a time.

If you had to do it all over again, would you go with the DOS? Seems like an easier setup process with the trade off being slower waterchanges.

 

[LoneStarReef]

I thought about the DOS but it just seems so expensive just for water changes. All in I am about $125 for this setup. Not bad. DOS is $299 and it takes a lot longer to do the water change. Just my 2 cents. However I have yet to set it up so ask me in a few months how it is going!!

Wow, that's pretty cool. I've been thinking about doing some kind of auto waterchanger for a while and really like your layout. I'm wanting to do 10 - 15 gallon water changes once a week with an auto Ro reservoir filler when low, and set up something so exactly 10 or 15 gallons is moved to my mixing tank at a time.

If you had to do it all over again, would you go with the DOS? Seems like an easier setup process with the trade off being slower waterchanges.

 

[Rick's Reef]

Thanks MaddyP for the welcome. I have been lurking around RC for years but the few posts I made there I just got totally flamed. I am really happy with the positive and constructive responses on R2R.

Thanks for the tip about the power outages and weird state. I will say, I don't intend to do unattended water changes but I will definitely take a look at whether I could/should have some set OFF in there. When I was setting up the system initially, I had a couple of issues with bad states with the Set OFF in there. And you are probably right, I may be able to trim down some outlets but as it stands right now, all of them are lined up and visible on my phone during the change and it gives me a better feel of where things are. I could probably replace the filling/draining outlets since I have the PMUPs key off of them, but I like having them separate because I will override those pumps a bit.

Overall, I am very happy with the setup and have been flushing water in 5g increments just to test it out. One "upgrade" I am making this weekend...I am going to run another 3/8" output tee'd off of the drain line with a ball valve up through the attic to my office where I have two 10g tanks queued up for TTM on new fish. My thought is I will use waste water from the DT as my fresh SW mix during TTM and QT. My DT is brand new so it is 100% disease free and I figure this way once the TTM is done and then the balance of 2 weeks in the QT, I am confident the new fish will acclimate easily to the DT because it will be the same basic water quality.

@LoneStarReef - agreed on the DOS concerns.

 

[LoneStarReef]

Any updates? I am going to set mine up in a week or so. The only thing I might do differently is to drain before I fill. If you fill before you drain you might drain some of the fresh water correct? However if I drain before I fill I might go too low for the pump in the return section.

So many things to consider.....

Thanks MaddyP for the welcome. I have been lurking around RC for years but the few posts I made there I just got totally flamed. I am really happy with the positive and constructive responses on R2R.

Thanks for the tip about the power outages and weird state. I will say, I don't intend to do unattended water changes but I will definitely take a look at whether I could/should have some set OFF in there. When I was setting up the system initially, I had a couple of issues with bad states with the Set OFF in there. And you are probably right, I may be able to trim down some outlets but as it stands right now, all of them are lined up and visible on my phone during the change and it gives me a better feel of where things are. I could probably replace the filling/draining outlets since I have the PMUPs key off of them, but I like having them separate because I will override those pumps a bit.

Overall, I am very happy with the setup and have been flushing water in 5g increments just to test it out. One "upgrade" I am making this weekend...I am going to run another 3/8" output tee'd off of the drain line with a ball valve up through the attic to my office where I have two 10g tanks queued up for TTM on new fish. My thought is I will use waste water from the DT as my fresh SW mix during TTM and QT. My DT is brand new so it is 100% disease free and I figure this way once the TTM is done and then the balance of 2 weeks in the QT, I am confident the new fish will acclimate easily to the DT because it will be the same basic water quality.

@LoneStarReef - agreed on the DOS concerns.

 

[Rick's Reef]

No changes on my setup. It is still working well.

Actually, some good and bad, but the bad has nothing to do with the water changing. I filled my tank with fresh ro/di water on Friday and made the mistake (I gather now) of mixing the salt directly in the tank. The tank was empty so I didn't expect there to be any issues . The tank is very cloudy still even 48 hours later.

But the good news is I was able to complete a 10% water change with just 2 cycles of my auto-change (it is about 7 gallons per cycle now).

@LoneStarReef on your point about fill vs drain order, I did a couple of searches awhile back and the consensus seems to be order does not matter. The dilution is not significantly diminished whether you drain first or fill first. To your point about the sump going too low, this is the situation for me. Also, I have a failsafe in that if the new SW reservoir goes empty then the drain just stops prematurely and the rest of the cycle completes as normal, making it just a smaller water change, as opposed to draining first and then running out of water to fill. Also, if I drain first, my ATO reservoir would kick in unless I added code to block it during the water change.

But in the interest of maximizing the water change effectiveness, I do add to the return section of the sump and drain from the entrance side, so I am effectively adding the new water right before it goes to the tank and taking from the skimmer area.

 

[AJsReef]

Great Idea, I'm in the process of setting up my new system. Purchased a DOS for AWC myself but think this seems to be the superior option and a much better price point. Is that 1/4" tubing? That manifold looks clean!

How do the PMUP handle to distance?

 

[LoneStarReef]

Nice! I like it. I will probably do this too. Going to test out my PMUP today and see how it works.

No changes on my setup. It is still working well.

Actually, some good and bad, but the bad has nothing to do with the water changing. I filled my tank with fresh ro/di water on Friday and made the mistake (I gather now) of mixing the salt directly in the tank. The tank was empty so I didn't expect there to be any issues . The tank is very cloudy still even 48 hours later.

But the good news is I was able to complete a 10% water change with just 2 cycles of my auto-change (it is about 7 gallons per cycle now).

@LoneStarReef on your point about fill vs drain order, I did a couple of searches awhile back and the consensus seems to be order does not matter. The dilution is not significantly diminished whether you drain first or fill first. To your point about the sump going too low, this is the situation for me. Also, I have a failsafe in that if the new SW reservoir goes empty then the drain just stops prematurely and the rest of the cycle completes as normal, making it just a smaller water change, as opposed to draining first and then running out of water to fill. Also, if I drain first, my ATO reservoir would kick in unless I added code to block it during the water change.

But in the interest of maximizing the water change effectiveness, I do add to the return section of the sump and drain from the entrance side, so I am effectively adding the new water right before it goes to the tank and taking from the skimmer area.

 

[LoneStarReef]

@Rick's Reef I just tried running my PMUP's for a water change and for some reason it isn't pushing water up 12 feet. My tubing runs 12 feet up the wall then a parallel run of about 8 feet in the attic then down 12 feet. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[LoneStarReef]

Scratch that. I had a kink in the tubing. Didn’t know it because the tubing was in the wall. Works perfectly now.

@Rick's Reef I just tried running my PMUP's for a water change and for some reason it isn't pushing water up 12 feet. My tubing runs 12 feet up the wall then a parallel run of about 8 feet in the attic then down 12 feet. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[Newb73]

The benifit of the DOS is the very slow rate.

1 do 10% a week which works out to be 3.5gpd.

The 3.5gpd goes very slow, changing around 100ml every 16 minutes during the day and then around 250ml every 13 minutes at night.

The slow rate means I have zero issue with shock by abruptly increasing or lowering alk levels, which means I have a large margin for error in what ever salt brand I want to use and their changes from batch to batch.

The real issue is that it's LOUD and according to the 5000 hour run time, I'll have to replace it every 5 to 6 years and replace the heads every 6 or 7 months

It is however fairly fool proof.

 

[jml1149]

Scratch that. I had a kink in the tubing. Didn’t know it because the tubing was in the wall. Works perfectly now.

What size tubing are you using?

 

[LoneStarReef]

Quarter inch. I can move about 5 gallons in about 6-7 minutes. However the specs say 100 gph at 0 head. I am running 12-13 feet of head. It’s a great little pump. Little loud but I don’t mind. To be able to move that much water through a 1/4 inch tube in that amount of time is worth it IMO.

What size tubing are you using?

 

[flo]

Hi Rick, been trying to figure out a AWC for my set up and can u tell me how do you link the PMUP in the garage to your apex? From what I could see if you don't have the FMM then have to go with the 1-Link but the PMUP in the sump need to be attached to that and so does the PMUP in the garage. I feel my brain hurt when I try and figure this one out. Thanks

 

[Sroufe7]

Does anyone know if a company makes a holder for the PMUP? I picky and don't like having them just hang in the sump.