Best Leds for Chaeto?

Rakie · Dec 25, 2017

@BigJohnny -- I do a lot of tutoring and I've noticed I'm reliant on alluding to things -- people seem to grasp a concept much better when they're left to connect the dots. In text based conversations, this is HORRIBLE.. So i'll try and clarify what I was alluding to more directly.

If you're adding stronger light to make your chaeto work, than you've "hit a wall", and it's at it's biological peak in terms of it's environment from a water chemistry standpoint -- Now before you say it, yes, this is a DUH statement or else you wouldn't be wanting to upgrade the light

-- Now we can adjust this by augmenting our environment in more than one way. One method is improving light, as it helps with photosynthesis. But what I'm trying to say is your chaeto is at it's maximum efficiency already. The gains from increasing light are going to be minuscule -- this is from experience with friends who've expected upgrading their fuge light to solve everything in the world, while all it did is cause an increase in pH by 0.1 or so. And I'm not talking a small upgrade, i'm talking about going from cheapy LED home depot liths to multiple horticulture LED's like kessil, or T5 lighting, and in one case, Halide.... It didn't change nearly as much as they expected.

Why didn't it? -- because their chaeto was already at it's maximum efficiency and was being restricted by it's water chemistry (lack of nutrients).

Now this isn't a bad thing, and min-maxing can have a huge impact when you are looking at doing this with ALL equipment in the tank, and not looking at just one piece of equipment.

So as food for thought -- When you go from a cheapy walmart light to a kessil h350 and see negligible difference, BUT, go from no3 of 2, to an no3 of 25 and see an explosion of chaeto growth and health -- It should give one pause to think.

In essence, I'm saying it's MORE likely that your chaeto is being restricted by water chemistry, than simply by lacking lighting.

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong @BigJohnny -- Not at all. but I am saying in this hobby, people tend to look at something from a polarized perspective, rather than the parallax which biology truly gives us. I hope that makes sense.

Pete1968 · Dec 25, 2017

BigJohnny said:
Ok, so here are the numbers. Keep in mind I did this quickly by hand. Par meter is BTM-3000 which uses the original apogee sensor which registers 410-655nm. The only calculations I did were for immersion, I did not adjust for spectrum and these light sources have different spectral composition.

These are the 2 lights I tested. Both stock except the Par38 is housed in a 6" Home Depot shop light reflector:
Mars Hydro Par38 (24W E26 E27)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ARI3HIG/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_CtcqAbN4EVJRM

Growstar 150W UFO
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07312WKX2/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_XucqAbB6EYFB6

PAR MEASUREMENTS
8" below light source
Center: Par38- 900/UFO- 400
2" off center: Par38- 650/UFO- 370
4" off center: Par38- 95/UFO- 330
6" off center: Par38- 10/UFO- 265

16" below light source
Center: Par38- 310/UFO- 190
2" off center: Par38- 275/UFO- 183
4" off center: Par38- 150/UFO- 172
6" off center: Par38- 35/UFO- 165

You can clearly see that the Par38 with reflector generates significant par, but is heavily focused. The UFO has much wider spread and very even PAR across all measurements. I was very pleased to see that it's not too much par at 8" (not sure what my target PAR should be here which is why I'm looking forward to the testing by @Dana Riddle ) because that means I can lower the fixture and reduce light spill without burning my chaeto. It has so much spread that even at 4" off of the water it covers my entire refugium. I will probably still hang some material to block out any remaining light spill.

I dropped the fixture down to about 6" for now, and am getting about 600-800 across the top of my whole refugium, very evenly spread. It's worth noting that I measured over 1200 par 4" below the center of the fixture, so if I wanted that much I could easily suspend the light at that distance.

In conclusion, I am very pleased with the results of these measurements. This light has better spectrum (which is very similar to Kessil h380) than my old Par38 (which grew chaeto well) and much better spread/power overall. At $41.99, assuming this fixture holds up, I could not be happier. They also sell a 300w for people trying to light a bigger refugium than mine (10.5" x 17.25" x 11.5") although I'm confident this light could work on one at least twice the size.

I will come back and post updates on growth rates in a month or so. Here are some pics of it when it was set up at 8", my phone does not show how bright it actually is. Merry Christmas and happy reefing!

Thankyou sir, i will be going with the 300 watt glowstar ufo its $68 from amazon, hopefully the par numbers will be close to the kessil h380

Pete1968 · Dec 25, 2017

Rakie said:
@BigJohnny -- I do a lot of tutoring and I've noticed I'm reliant on alluding to things -- people seem to grasp a concept much better when they're left to connect the dots. In text based conversations, this is HORRIBLE.. So i'll try and clarify what I was alluding to more directly.

If you're adding stronger light to make your chaeto work, than you've "hit a wall", and it's at it's biological peak in terms of it's environment from a water chemistry standpoint -- Now before you say it, yes, this is a DUH statement or else you wouldn't be wanting to upgrade the light -- Now we can adjust this by augmenting our environment in more than one way. One method is improving light, as it helps with photosynthesis. But what I'm trying to say is your chaeto is at it's maximum efficiency already. The gains from increasing light are going to be minuscule -- this is from experience with friends who've expected upgrading their fuge light to solve everything in the world, while all it did is cause an increase in pH by 0.1 or so. And I'm not talking a small upgrade, i'm talking about going from cheapy LED home depot liths to multiple horticulture LED's like kessil, or T5 lighting, and in one case, Halide.... It didn't change nearly as much as they expected.

Why didn't it? -- because their chaeto was already at it's maximum efficiency and was being restricted by it's water chemistry (lack of nutrients).

Now this isn't a bad thing, and min-maxing can have a huge impact when you are looking at doing this with ALL equipment in the tank, and not looking at just one piece of equipment.

So as food for thought -- When you go from a cheapy walmart light to a kessil h350 and see negligible difference, BUT, go from no3 of 2, to an no3 of 25 and see an explosion of chaeto growth and health -- It should give one pause to think.

In essence, I'm saying it's MORE likely that your chaeto is being restricted by water chemistry, than simply by lacking lighting.

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong @BigJohnny -- Not at all. but I am saying in this hobby, people tend to look at something from a polarized perspective, rather than the parallax which biology truly gives us. I hope that makes sense.

I think you need to watch BRS video on best light for refugium! They do a controlled study and it proved with 5 test tanks with same conditions that the kessil h380 was producing a 1600 par , next closest was 400 par38 , the kessil was out producing cheato by 3 fold, its clear evidence that the right sump light makes a huge difference, I strongly suggest you watch the video

Rakie · Dec 25, 2017

Pete1968 said:
I think you need to watch BRS video on best light for refugium! They do a controlled study and it proved with 5 test tanks with same conditions that the kessil h380 was producing a 1600 par , next closest was 400 par38 , the kessil was out producing cheato by 3 fold, its clear evidence that the right sump light makes a huge difference, I strongly suggest you watch the video

Why would you assume I haven't watched it? It's hardly a controlled study, and if you read what I had said, you'd know I've had friends who've used the same Kessil, or T5's and Halides in their fuge with almost zero impact for them or their system. It did not magically lower their amount of nutrients from x to z, it only increased pH by a miniscule amount.

An empty container with nothing but a blended cube of mysis per day is far from a good study that impacts an actual reef -- which is why they're redoing this with the small system that contains live rock and fish. Which will be replaced later with a small reef system with LPS most likely.

Chaeto utilizes more than just nitrates and phosphates -- given an environment with zero water changes, meaning no introduction of the metals that macro algae consume, you're left with a vacuum which is far from a proper representation of the environment and chemistry going on in a reef tank. The chaeto literally has nothing BUT nitrates and phosphates to feed on, besides photosynthesis glucose creation.

I stand by everything I said -- citing real life examples of those who are nothing short of disappointed in their results of upgrading to a kessil h380, or T5 -- All they got was an increase of pH by 0.1 or so. No change in nutrients. This includes a buddy with a fuge significantly larger than the average -- about 10x22" stuffed with chaeto... Didn't help him with anything. His no3/po4 was the same, even after months of time.

It's always more complicated. Always.

BigJohnny · Dec 25, 2017

Rakie said:
I agree! In almost every post I always try to say how everything in this hobby is relative.

But what I mean by sufficient is doubling my growth in a few days. Any light is capable of that if your chaeto has enough nutrients at it's disposal. If doubling your quantity of chaeto in 3-4 days isn't sufficient than I'll concede my point. But I'd wager most would be happy to double their chaeto twice a month, let alone twice a week. For me, chaeto was an unmanageable nightmare of constant growth, and caused my SPS to pale. On the other hand, my colors and growth have never been better -- I'm currently running no3 at 40, and po4 at 0.80 (not a typo, 0.80, NOT 0.08)

What your saying is all relative. Doubling 1 gram of chaeto in a few days vs 500 grams is not the same. the impact of that doubling is determined by many additional variables like how big the refugium is in relationship to the display, how high nutrient levels are in the tank, and what your target levels are. I'm not concerned with the growth multiplier of the chaeto, I'm concerned with where it keeps nutrient levels in my tank.

Chaeto growth is also impacted by flow, turnover rate through the sump, certain trace element levels, and many other things we don't yet fully understand. To say that everyone can double their chaeto in a few days with any light is simply false. Everyone's situation is unique, and some people need stronger lights.

If you don't think lights make a difference, I recommend you watch brstvs YouTube testing on chaeto. There is a significant difference in the performance of a refugium based on lighting alone. I'm sorry bud, but I'm really not interested in debating this any further. Glad your tank is doing better! Merry Christmas!

BigJohnny · Dec 25, 2017

Rakie said:
@BigJohnny -- I do a lot of tutoring and I've noticed I'm reliant on alluding to things -- people seem to grasp a concept much better when they're left to connect the dots. In text based conversations, this is HORRIBLE.. So i'll try and clarify what I was alluding to more directly.

If you're adding stronger light to make your chaeto work, than you've "hit a wall", and it's at it's biological peak in terms of it's environment from a water chemistry standpoint -- Now before you say it, yes, this is a DUH statement or else you wouldn't be wanting to upgrade the light -- Now we can adjust this by augmenting our environment in more than one way. One method is improving light, as it helps with photosynthesis. But what I'm trying to say is your chaeto is at it's maximum efficiency already. The gains from increasing light are going to be minuscule -- this is from experience with friends who've expected upgrading their fuge light to solve everything in the world, while all it did is cause an increase in pH by 0.1 or so. And I'm not talking a small upgrade, i'm talking about going from cheapy LED home depot liths to multiple horticulture LED's like kessil, or T5 lighting, and in one case, Halide.... It didn't change nearly as much as they expected.

Why didn't it? -- because their chaeto was already at it's maximum efficiency and was being restricted by it's water chemistry (lack of nutrients).

Now this isn't a bad thing, and min-maxing can have a huge impact when you are looking at doing this with ALL equipment in the tank, and not looking at just one piece of equipment.

So as food for thought -- When you go from a cheapy walmart light to a kessil h350 and see negligible difference, BUT, go from no3 of 2, to an no3 of 25 and see an explosion of chaeto growth and health -- It should give one pause to think.

In essence, I'm saying it's MORE likely that your chaeto is being restricted by water chemistry, than simply by lacking lighting.

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong @BigJohnny -- Not at all. but I am saying in this hobby, people tend to look at something from a polarized perspective, rather than the parallax which biology truly gives us. I hope that makes sense.

Sorry bud I already posted a response to your other comment I'm not interested in debating this further, it's taking away from the reason I created the thread. Thanks

Pete1968 · Dec 25, 2017

Anyone that would use t5s or metal halides for a fuge light is crazy,but to say brs video wasn’t controlled is simply not true, i had a 200 gallon mixed reef tank with a trigger 36 sump i wss running a par 38 led light that was red/blue at 54 watts it was ok, once i added the kessil h380 the cheato grow was amazing, thus backing up brs study which i already knew, i sold the entire setup a few months ago and just set up an 80 gal deep blue tank with a trigger 34 sump, i will be adding a ufo 300 watt grow light, i am
Sure the cheato will love it but i know from experience the kessil h380 is a wonderful light i just dont want to spend 300 on a fuge lighf, finally i think anyone who watched the brs video would disagree with you!

Crabs McJones · Dec 25, 2017

@BigJohnny Any updates on your light or what you went with, this thread got a little out of hand in my absence lol

Pete1968 · Dec 25, 2017

Lol, i went with the 300 watt ufo same model as your just bigger from amazon only $ 68 thanks so much for your help, i use to own the kessil h380 it’s second to none just dont have 300 right now for a fuge light, brs study was basic and top notch you can’t argue with the results! I am hoping to get close to double your par reading i own the trigger 34 sump so i needed a bigger light

Rakie · Dec 25, 2017

Pete1968 said:
Anyone that would use t5s or metal halides for a fuge light is crazy,but to say brs video wasn’t controlled is simply not true, i had a 200 gallon mixed reef tank with a trigger 36 sump i wss running a par 38 led light that was red/blue at 54 watts it was ok, once i added the kessil h380 the cheato grow was amazing, thus backing up brs study which i already knew, i sold the entire setup a few months ago and just set up an 80 gal deep blue tank with a trigger 34 sump, i will be adding a ufo 300 watt grow light, i am
Sure the cheato will love it but i know from experience the kessil h380 is a wonderful light i just dont want to spend 300 on a fuge lighf, finally i think anyone who watched the brs video would disagree with you!

That both isn't what I said, nor was my point.

What I'm saying is growing it bigger and faster doesn't necessarily mean nutrient reduction. If you're going monster truck (bigger for the sake of why not) and enjoy a lush field of chaeto cool. If you think a giant mass of it is doing something special -- than why are ATS and Chaeto reactors more efficient?

This is what I was saying. A giant ball of cheato doesn't do more than a smaller ball of chaeto does. I've had both, and seen it make very little difference. As have others I've known.

Pete1968 · Dec 25, 2017

I have never own a ats so i cant comment on them, other than theres mixed reviews on there effectiveness, refugium are time tested and proven, i was not saying a huge mass of cheato was solving anything, but as shown in the brs video if you use the proper lighting the cheato takes off and sucks up all the bad nutriets from your tank and levels it out in the process,thats all i was saying, sorry if I didn’t explain that earlier, happy reefing and merry Christmas

BigJohnny · Dec 25, 2017

crabs_mcjones said:
@BigJohnny Any updates on your light or what you went with, this thread got a little out of hand in my absence lol

Agreed, play nice everyone! Yes scroll up a bit I posted par testing. I'm using that growstar 150w ufo

Rakie · Dec 25, 2017

No worries, and I understand what you're saying -- all I'm saying is this part that's highlighted below is debatable do to my and others personal experience.

Pete1968 said:
but as shown in the brs video if you use the proper lighting the cheato takes off and sucks up all the bad nutriets from your tank

When I try and have a fully fledged out post my point is often obfuscated -- I'm very wordy, and that also doesn't go over well. Too many words allows the point to be lost.

Cause I definitely support the notion that it'll grow bigger, I don't doubt that part at all.

Crabs McJones · Dec 25, 2017

BigJohnny said:
Ok, so here are the numbers. Keep in mind I did this quickly by hand. Par meter is BTM-3000 which uses the original apogee sensor which registers 410-655nm. The only calculations I did were for immersion, I did not adjust for spectrum and these light sources have different spectral composition.

These are the 2 lights I tested. Both stock except the Par38 is housed in a 6" Home Depot shop light reflector:
Mars Hydro Par38 (24W E26 E27)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ARI3HIG/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_CtcqAbN4EVJRM

Growstar 150W UFO
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07312WKX2/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_XucqAbB6EYFB6

PAR MEASUREMENTS
8" below light source
Center: Par38- 900/UFO- 400
2" off center: Par38- 650/UFO- 370
4" off center: Par38- 95/UFO- 330
6" off center: Par38- 10/UFO- 265

16" below light source
Center: Par38- 310/UFO- 190
2" off center: Par38- 275/UFO- 183
4" off center: Par38- 150/UFO- 172
6" off center: Par38- 35/UFO- 165

You can clearly see that the Par38 with reflector generates significant par, but is heavily focused. The UFO has much wider spread and very even PAR across all measurements. I was very pleased to see that it's not too much par at 8" (not sure what my target PAR should be here which is why I'm looking forward to the testing by @Dana Riddle ) because that means I can lower the fixture and reduce light spill without burning my chaeto. It has so much spread that even at 4" off of the water it covers my entire refugium. I will probably still hang some material to block out any remaining light spill.

I dropped the fixture down to about 6" for now, and am getting about 600-800 across the top of my whole refugium, very evenly spread. It's worth noting that I measured over 1200 par 4" below the center of the fixture, so if I wanted that much I could easily suspend the light at that distance.

In conclusion, I am very pleased with the results of these measurements. This light has better spectrum (which is very similar to Kessil h380) than my old Par38 (which grew chaeto well) and much better spread/power overall. At $41.99, assuming this fixture holds up, I could not be happier. They also sell a 300w for people trying to light a bigger refugium than mine (10.5" x 17.25" x 11.5") although I'm confident this light could work on one at least twice the size.

I will come back and post updates on growth rates in a month or so. Here are some pics of it when it was set up at 8", my phone does not show how bright it actually is. Merry Christmas and happy reefing!

found it, looking good! Lol

BigJohnny · Dec 25, 2017

Pete1968 said:
Lol, i went with the 300 watt ufo same model as your just bigger from amazon only $ 68 thanks so much for your help, i use to own the kessil h380 it’s second to none just dont have 300 right now for a fuge light, brs study was basic and top notch you can’t argue with the results! I am hoping to get close to double your par reading i own the trigger 34 sump so i needed a bigger light

Nice, no problem. I would say that you wouldn't necessarily get double the par reading just more spread. I'm sure there is more par but I doubt double. You could simply lower the fixture though. What are the dimensions of your refugium?

Pete1968 · Dec 25, 2017

BigJohnny said:
Nice, no problem. I would say that you wouldn't necessarily get double the par reading just more spread. I'm sure there is more par but I doubt double. You could simply lower the fixture though. What are the dimensions of your refugium?

34 long 15 high 15 wide trigger 34 amthiest

Pete1968 · Dec 25, 2017

Pete1968 said:
34 long 15 high 15 wide trigger 34 amthiest

Fuge section is 10.25 by 14.50

BigJohnny · Dec 25, 2017

Pete1968 said:
Fuge section is 10.25 by 14.50

My refugium is actually larger (10.5" x 17.25", 11.5" deep)
I would go with the 150w if you can cancel the 300w amazon. Usually easy to do before it ships, if not they usually have free returns if it's sold through amazon. The 300w will be quite big and a ton of light spill.

What par number are you looking for at the top of the refugium?

Charterreefer · Dec 25, 2017

BigJohnny said:
Hey Reefers,

I am trying to decide between these two LED "UFO" grow fixtures. My chaeto isn't keeping up with my increased bioload under the ol Par38 style bulb. My current Par38 is 24w with 9 red leds (630nm and 660nm) and 3 blue leds (460nm).

These two fixtures seem pretty similar except a slightly different mix of leds EXCEPT one has a 3000k Cree COB in the middle which I've never seen on one of these before.

Here is the first fixture:
Roleadro UFO 138W LED Grow Light for Home Grower https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RWYCRB2/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_8TYmAbT9YVVYY

Doesn't say how many leds of which type but just that they are 3w epi/bridgelux and include the following:

Full spectrum 9 band,including UV and IR: 430~440nm, 450~460nm, 610~615nm, 620~630nm, 650~660nm, white, IR(730nm) , UV 380~400nm, 470nm.

Here is the 2nd fixture with the Cree COB:
UFO Led Grow Light, Growstar 150W Full Spectrum Plant Light with Cree COB and Switch for Indoor Plants Seeding, Growing and Flowering. (150w) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07312WKX2/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_6VYmAbQH2G87R

Again doesn't say how many of each type but 3w epi/bridgelux plus a 30w Cree COB and include the following:

Red(650-660nm, 620-630nm), Orange(600-610nm), Blue(430-440nm, 450-460nm, 460-470nm), UV(380-400nm), IR(740-760nm), White(2700-3000K, 4200-4500K), Cree COB(3000K)

Thoughts? I think I can probably find a ufo with just the red n blue like the Par38 as well, there so many different ones on amazon and ebay. These both have 2 year warranties and decent reviews. I just don't know what's best.

I have been powering my 40 gal breeder refugium with 3-5000K Eco Smart floodlights from Home Depot for years!!! They work incredibly and only cost < $10 dollars a piece ! ! Sure, you can spend as much as you want although, spending any more on refugium lighting is just plain foolish...it's algae not coral! Save your money for your display tank. My Chaeto grows very well when I add nutrients to the water. If there are no nutrients it doesn't grow much...keep it simple.

I have been growing SPS coral exclusively (and very successfully) for many years and need impeccable water quality.

Pete1968 · Dec 25, 2017

BigJohnny said:
My refugium is actually larger (10.5" x 17.25", 11.5" deep)
I would go with the 150w if you can cancel the 300w amazon. Usually easy to do before it ships, if not they usually have free returns if it's sold through amazon. The 300w will be quite big and a ton of light spill.

What par number are you looking for at the top of the refugium?

The par number brs came up with on there test was like 1600 from the kessil h380 i had the trigger 36 ruby before and the kessil grew cheato like mad,so from you par readings I figured the par would be like around 600 to 800 at top of sump as far as light overspill i think its the same size light just more leds, plus its the trigger 34, its colored acrylic to avoid overspill, your is a homemade sump i think so of course mad overspill, its a hard call i want to make sure the light is big enough, but of course not to big, i coukd always limit the run time to avoid burning the cheato, its a tuff call , I just was going by your par numbers they looked alittle low compared to the kessil, so with that being said, you still believe the 150w light is big enough?