Black Bugs - An Acro keepers worst nightmare?

[305Reefer]

Just a little update... so Ive tried Revive at 4x for 10 minutes, interceptor both in tank at high dose, and dip at ultra high dose, potassium chloride at 4tbsp/gal for 10 minutes, and so far none have worked. Yesterday I did 135% dose of Prime Coral Dip for 10 minutes and I moved them back into my display tank on racks (I dont have an SPS ready QT tank), tonight I will dip them again and im hoping for some success this time around. If this doesnt work, I may be ready to throw in the towel...

 

[chicago]

Any updates.

 

[DesertReefT4r]

OP, I had to deal with black bugs a while back. They can be beaten and are not as big of a deal as some people make them out to be. I treated them like red bugs and did several dips with Ivermectin. Ivermectin is very similar to Interceptor, its a liquid form of animal de wormer, Interceptor is a pill form. You will need to get it from an animal Vet. It will take several dips over several weeks to break the life cycle of the bugs. I have heard that Bayer dips will work as well, stuff kills everything, but I have no experience with Bayer as a coral pest dip. I can say Ivermectin works on AEFW, red bugs and black bugs for a fact since I have hands on experience. I would speculate it would also work on MEN as well. I had to call a few local Vets and finally found an exotic animal Vet that was willing to help when I had red bugs. I needed to bring an infected coral frag as the patient. I got to check the little pests out under a microscope eating my frag. What was super cool is the Vet asked if he could send the frag to a colleague at the Monetary Bay Aquarium for research on the pest. Of coarse I let him have the frag in the name of science. Hope this was helpful, keep us posted and good luck.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I would try melafix guys. I’d revive works melafix is MUCH less harsh on the corals and works a little better ime. If tank treatments aren’t working then I would do strong dips every week until they are gone.
Bayer doesn’t kill everything, it stuns lots of stuff though. I have seen men live in a Bayer solution for hours, slowly moving around. I don’t use Bayer anymore after seeing that.

 

[Joao junior]

I think i have this pest too,
Im fighting here,nothing kill it, now im blasting corals and take out the bases,it put eggs in coral base same aefw,is easy to take it out the Corals, i dont know how i do in Reef,

 

[Joao junior]

I try praziquantel,levamisole,bayer,melafix and similar and nothing

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Has anyone got a clear shot of these up close?

 

[Jettareefer223]

I’ve finally after burning thru 24 medium breed 11.5 mg interceptor pills trying various test and failures I feel at last I’ve beaten them.

I’ve done treatment upwards 8-9x standard red bug dosage at durations ranging 18-48 hours before post care precedure.

Over the course of nearly 20 months I’ve fought hard and lost a ton. My biggest mistake was forgoing follow up treatments, which I can’t overstated this like seriously thy are THE MOST IMPORTANT STEP. It didn’t matter times I multipied the the dosage or the length they always came back more destructive and resistant to interceptor when administered in single dose treatments.

What worked for me and finally did full course including a full follow up schedule. I was going to have nothing to loose in the literal sense it was getting that progressive. I really just said f it I knew had to do it. I lost pretty much all growth and coloration in my acros all went brownor green. If multi-colored they went shifted almost completely to the primary color.

I did the following
-initial treatment was 7x dosage equated 3 full 11.5mg chews into my 55 gallon net volume. For 18 hours, and after that 10 gallon w/c heavy skimming. Only used carbon this treatment.

-follow up #1 was 7 days (week) after the initial treatment. Same 7x dosage this one for 24 hours. Then followed by 10 gallon w/c no carbon just heavy skimming.

-follow up #2 again 7 days after the first follow up (14 days/2 week post initial). 7x dosage again it wasn’t intended this treatment went over 48 hours. I did 50% w/c unwillingly ran major mechanical filtration and had skimmer basically overflowing due a wicked bacterial bloom in a matter of 4 hours it was just slightly turbid to milky white (linked to another unrelated ongoing problem more likely deems the bloom irrelevant to treating the bugs)

I had a major bacterial bloom after #2 I believe that to be a result of a chemiclean treatment in proxy killed off a large portion on my beneficial bacteria. That took place after follow up #1, but before #2. With all the filler, beef flavoring, and whatever else is in there it could break it all down and compounding the issue was the long duration.

Either way my corals haven’t looked as good as they do now in terms of vitality after all the interceptor torture in I would say at least a year if not longer. Colors are blah, but are coming around growth is really picking up exponentially I always had decent growth rates even with the bugs at least the acro they didn’t decimated quickly. The colonies with damage that never had a chance to heal fully between single round treatments session is currently 90% healed now. Yet to see any of them I’m anal to the point it drives me crazy I’ll be up at 4am with a flashlight I nearly gave up it was beyond defeating. I did 4-5 treatments before I finally caved went all out it always proved to be a temporary solution with caveat that you’re making them (bugs) stronger.

With the novel finished I’ll add this... interceptor is exceedingly safe corals don’t seem to have much of a negative reaction even with the prazi that’s in the interceptor plus. I’ve honestly observed lps corals ballon up w/ feeding responses. The vast majority Acro’s In my experience display exuberant PE even extreme dosages and in contrast a small number purge ministerial filaments to excess (EX. pc rainbow) but always recover quickly. I think most of the triggered responses are a result of beef flavoring, not a reaction the medication IMO.

One disclaimer worth mentioning which is not directly related to interceptor itself being harmful by any means, but I feel it needs to be highlighted. Upon the systems initial exposure to interceptor there will be guaranteed die off of micro fauna can cause issues. I personally would start lower in overall dosage like 3x the standard at duration not exceeding 18 hours complete full post treatment procedure ex. 25% w/c/carbon/etc .... just my .02

Hope this can be useful for anyone waging war on these ridiculous bugs!

 

[SandJ]

It is late, and this may be a stupid idea...but just thinking.
If you have your frags on a frag rack, and slowing started raising the frag up out of the water, would the black bugs migrate down the frag to stay in the water? Then the frag plug could be dipped in something more aggressive or the coral removed and glued to another plug. Or is there enough water left in the coral that the bugs would not mind being out above water level?

@DesertReefT4r you can buy Ivermectin at tractor supply company or similar farm supply stores, no prescription required. The version I buy is a pig dewormer.

 

[Jettareefer223]

It is late, and this may be a stupid idea...but just thinking.
If you have your frags on a frag rack, and slowing started raising the frag up out of the water, would the black bugs migrate down the frag to stay in the water? Then the frag plug could be dipped in something more aggressive or the coral removed and glued to another plug. Or is there enough water left in the coral that the bugs would not mind being out above water level?

@DesertReefT4r you can buy Ivermectin at tractor supply company or similar farm supply stores, no prescription required. The version I buy is a pig dewormer.

If they’re in tank period regardless they’ll migrate wherever they’re adaptive and resilient unlike red bug which are a walk in the park. Dipping one thing will generally provide temporary relief it really depends certain pieces they have a liking for they’ll go back to immediately. If the corals all compromised from ongoing dipping on top of already have damage the bug will kill it even quicker. In term of actually solution that would fall short.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I am curious if these bugs are actually hiding inside of polyp cavities or flesh. I keep seeing people say they are coming out of the coral itself in some situations.
If this is the case I wonder if flat worm stop has any effect on how bad these bugs affect acropora. Is anyone that has black bugs, dosing flatworm stop?

 

[Jettareefer223]

I am curious if these bugs are actually hiding inside of polyp cavities or flesh. I keep seeing people say they are coming out of the coral itself in some situations.
If this is the case I wonder if flat worm stop has any effect on how bad these bugs affect acropora. Is anyone that has black bugs, dosing flatworm stop?

Mine did once they would upset the coral to the point where pe was non-existent. I observed them crawling in and out the coralites. During exposure to interceptor they would get irritated and come out that’s when I was no longer “underwhelmed” by the visual number of bugs for the amount damage they cause. This solidifies my believe in the follow ups. Then there’s whole debate whether or not they lay eggs.

 

[DesertReefT4r]

@DesertReefT4r you can buy Ivermectin at tractor supply company or similar farm supply stores, no prescription required. The version I buy is a pig dewormer.

Good to know that, thanks.

 

[drawman]

Melafix is basically the same thing as Revive.. I think it will have similar results, meaning that you can shock and remove the bugs with a strong enough dose. But they can still hide in the nooks and crannies.. With a strong enough dose for long enough, you kill the bug in the dip but also potentially kill or severely hurt the coral.

I would try melafix guys. I’d revive works melafix is MUCH less harsh on the corals and works a little better ime. If tank treatments aren’t working then I would do strong dips every week until they are gone.
Bayer doesn’t kill everything, it stuns lots of stuff though. I have seen men live in a Bayer solution for hours, slowly moving around. I don’t use Bayer anymore after seeing that.

Thankfully I've never had these (knock on wood). I'm curious do they "come out" in revive or melafix dips at normal strength? Would be nice to be able to see these guys on incoming frags and toss them if they truly are that tough to beat.

 

[vetteguy53081]

This is going to be a difficult post for me to write, bear with me.

Last night after 3 days of research, discussion with other reefers, testing treatments under a microscope, and bringing myself to actually do it; I tore down my Acro tank. Not a hurt acro tank, but a beautiful growing acro tank that had been up for approximately 8 months with acros and 2 years total. I chopped up all my encrusted frags and colonies and basically chucked them in the trash keeping a tiny 1-2" frag of the healthiest corals to not loose the bloodlines.

It all started about two weeks ago when I noticed my alkalinity staying stable for once, which is weird for my tank. It's always going low because my tank was transitioning from its "bunch of frags stage" to the "every frag is taking off into a colony stage". I noticed I didn't have to make my weekly adjustment dose and then up my daily dose and I noticed a few corals looking like the edges of the encrusting part where white and maybe beginning to STN. I didnt think much about it and attributed it to no water changes for 3 months. While parameters were perfect I figured my trace elements were getting out of wack finally. So I did two 20g water changes back to back in my 90g tank with 30g frag tank.

A few days later I noticed 3 of my Acros where now actually STNing. That day another more experienced SPS reefer swung by my house to get some stuff and saw my tank. He immediately told me something was very wrong. And that my issue wasn't water parameters, trace elements, low phosphates, etc. He said something was attacking them. My first thought was AEFW. I started researching and decided to let them stay in the tank and try out the KZ Flatwork Stop and Wrasse Technique. I figured those corals were stressed from something else or a combination of things and well I basically didnt know what was going on. I have been dosing KZ Coral Booster for a while and several people told me with that product, corals can actually withstand a AEFW infestation and you wont see it, you'll just see bite marks here and there and you'll see growth slow, colors fade, etc.

So I posted to SPS Junkies on facebook group a picture of my STNing RR Pink Floyd and a guy from California immediately messaged me saying, "Im sorry to say this but I'm 99% sure you have black bugs, the absolutely worst Acro pest" I called him up and we talked thru IDing them. I pulled the Pink Floyd out and dipped it in 2 cap fulls of Revive in 16oz of water which is approximately 4x strength. Immediately a bunch of little black bugs emerged from the coral.





At this point everything is spiraling downward incredibly quickly. In the course of a week I went from a few sick corals to loosing thousands of dollars worth of Acros. A whole section of frags on a frag rack are obviously being eaten alive by these bugs and it all hits me, HOLY CRAP I gotta do something NOW. Basically the lower half of the tank along with the frag racks where all STN/RTNing. Since I can't see them with the naked eye, I bust out my camera and macro lens and start taking pictures so I can zoom in on them and inspect which corals need to be cut out first.. Thats when I discover I ALSO HAVE AEFW when I see their bite marks on some corals. Double Whammy. The crazy part is that no new corals had been added to the tank since RAP in April.



In my research I found that most people do not beat them. Lots of people didn't even want to discuss it with me. One guy even told me, kiss your tank good bye. A few others had experimented with extreme dipping methods. It seemed a few people had success with cutting bases off corals, dipping at 4x dose revive for 5 minutes.. Every week for 8 weeks and leaving the tank fallow of acros for 4-6 months to destroy the entire lifecycle before replanting frags. I experimented with Bayer, even super concentrated did nothing to them at all.

So thats what Im doing at the moment. Experimenting and dipping. But I had to tear down the tank.



I'm not sure I will revisit sticks again after this. Thank god I'm single and young, no wife/no kids. No wife would stand for the amount of money I spent on frags this past year and then deal with loosing 75% of them.

The death toll is serious:
RR Ultimate Orange Passion
RR Angry Birds
RR Lion King
RR Equinox
RR Diesel
RR Pink Venom
RR Badger
RR Inferno
RR WM Fusion
RR Red Velvet
RR Strawberry Fields
Vivid Confetti
PC Rainbow
SC Orange Passion
CB Beast Mode Acro
CB Gumdrop Acro
CB Wet Dreams
CB Miami Orchid
CB Sick Nasty
CB Fruity Pebbles
CB Birthday Cake
CB Rainbow Treasure
CB Valhalla
CB Big Papi
DJ Skitty's FHRITP
TCK Rainbow Matrix
TCK Candy Crush
TCK Mardi Gras

I managed to save:
Big R Walt Disney
JF Fox Flame
JF Homewrecker
RRC OG Jawdropper
RR Aussie Gold Tort
RR Rainbow Loom
HSF Leviathan Acro
CB Flaming Unicorn
CB Versace Acro
CB Icecap Acro
BC Bubblebath Unicorn (maybe, its hurt bad)
GARF Bonsai

One more note, I think these are rare. I think there are more than one kind, and I think each kind eats certain types of Acros. The one I have seems to eat acros with textured skin and passes on smooth skin acros. Not proven, just from observation.

I made this post so everyone can see what they look like. Discuss experiences, and be aware. These things make AEFW seem fun.

OH NO

 

[Joao junior]

when i used interpector for 12 hours i lost some fish, i used invermectin 1% 1 ml per liter and it didn't work, i caught it from wild sps colonies

 

[Jettareefer223]

when i used interpector for 12 hours i lost some fish, i used invermectin 1% 1 ml per liter and it didn't work, i caught it from wild sps colonies

Did you create strong surface current? I’ve never had fish or snails die in 18 years even several of my old Scarlett hermits get temporarily paralyzed but recover. The die off of fauna can strip oxygen I always flip my return nozzles up aggressively disturb the water at the surface since I leave my skimmer off.

I got mine on a wild piece as well (Aussie colony).

 

[Joao junior]

I have strong circulation and i only used 1x interceptor, i got mine in wild aussie too

 

[Jettareefer223]

I have strong circulation and i only used 1x interceptor, i got mine in wild aussie too

I’ve done 8-9x concentration for 36 hours and my last set I did a total of three a week apart each was 6-7x concentration various lengths 18-48 hours after the initial I did small w/c’s no carbons. Even had a crazy bacterial bloom no loses.

Did you use interceptor plus or raw powder? How long was your tank established and running when you treated?

This is my Aussie piece they came on it was small maybe 2x2” it has managed even being completely infested with bugs off and on to out grow everything other then my stags measuring now 10x7.5x5” after 18 months. You can see where it finally healing on the right side of the picture.

 

[Joao junior]

my reef is 2 years old and I used interceptor, your sps lost color ??