Bolus dosing

[reef_ranch]

Maybe our posts have crossed paths, but
Scientific laboratory experiments in our hobby are sparse.

If they do arise, I would love to see the results as much as you.

We don’t have much else to go on unfortunately.

As I’ve said before, spatial and temporal observations are also useful. That’s what will “come out in the wash” and I suspect will be the best we’ll get from an observation point of view.

If there is published science, then that would spark an interesting debate for sure.

Until then, you might not know whether bolus gives a steady pH rise, but I’ve seen it in triplicate. One day you might try it too, but I won’t hold my breath.

I might try it (seriously, I am constantly changing methods and this one seems at least to be harmless), but I would recognize I am taking a flyer on it and whatever I observe with pH may have nothing to do with the bolus dose itself. It may well be caused by bolus dosing, but until someone shows the mechanism by which a bolus does of bicarbonate causes a gradual increase in pH in a reef tank, I can't competently claim that there is a causal relationship between what I observe and the bolus dose even if I made no other husbandry changes. My chemistry changes all the time without any husbandry changes.

Oh, and the fact that this hobby has sparse laboratory experiments hardly gives us license to ignore the scientific method.

 

[Mo.]

I might try it (seriously, I am constantly changing methods and this one seems at least to be harmless), but I would recognize I am taking a flyer on it and whatever I observe with pH may have nothing to do with the bolus dose itself. It may well be caused by bolus dosing, but until someone shows the mechanism by which a bolus does of bicarbonate causes a gradual increase in pH in a reef tank, I can't competently claim that there is a causal relationship between what I observe and the bolus dose even if I made no other husbandry changes. My chemistry changes all the time without any husbandry changes.

Oh, and the fact that this hobby has sparse laboratory experiments hardly gives us license to ignore the scientific method.

Those are just rods for your back and pretty big ones at that.

If what you said above were true then even laboratory experiments couldn’t support any conclusion as the variables you describe are infinite.

If you turn your lights on and your corals grow and you turn them off for a month and they die. It could be that your skimmer packed up.

But if you did it 3 times and nothing else changed and your skimmer didn’t die is it reasonable to assume that maybe turning your lights off for so long could be the culprit?

Similarly If I do bolus and pH gradually goes up, I do kalk and maintain high. Come off and watch pH drop. Try balling light and pH stays around 8.2 and then s witch to bolus and up it goes and do that on a few separate occasions.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume the bolus may have been involved.

I don’t go looking for the lighting change that I never made. Or the accidental kalk dose that my wife was doing in my absence or …….

That’s where I’m coming from in my tank.
I’m not asking you to believe me.

I’ve suggest maybe trying it yourselves on that basis. You don’t have to and nobody here really has, otherwise maybe we would have had more to discuss.

The more that have the experience, the more to discuss.

What I don’t know, is how many don’t get the pH rise and if not, what’s that reason. That would be more intriguing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I haven’t tried it with other alk products, but it’s not difficult if somebody wants to do it. It would need a fresh bolus user.

If I did that now it would be to see if the effect is maintained, which again is a different story.

However, if as you say the Fm is only bicarb, it shouldn’t be any different to the other products?

Point is, a fellow bolus doser already did and claims a big difference between bicarbonate dosing and fm alk dosing in terms of pH.

If we should accept your data, you should accept his, and we should all try to reconcile the explanations.

Bolus dosing

And you have missed the context of this and countless other comments in this thread many times. Much of the "round and round" is the result. That is not being stated or argued by the vast majority of participants here (if any, in those terms). Why do you insist repeating things like that if...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MnFish1]

I’ve been stocking the system for the last year and changing the dosing systems and lighting etc.

You’d have thought, maybe with my experience and background, I’d have some kind of idea about what is being observed and measured in the tank, especially given the temporal reactions to changes I have already mentioned.

I’m not about to do a science experiment, but temporal and spatial relationships to observations, can also have some validity.

After all, I’m not aware of any other system having had published scientific peer review before being marketed. So in this hobby, this thread is probably about as much scrutiny in any given system, we’re going to get and my opinion remains that having not done the light boost and made observations between kalk, balling light and bolus that bolus has a temporal impact on pH.

I think the issue is not that there isn't a specific experiment documenting (or refuting it) - its that from a chemistry sense (and - its well established - what bicarbonate etc do) - many smart people cannot figure out using those scientific rules why what you're suggesting should happen - or if it does happen in your tank - due to some specific reason - no indication that it will happen in most or many other tanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe my misinterpretation, but that’s the message I recall- that a steady rise in pH from bicarb dosing is not possible.

See, you throw in the bicarbonate explanation. I may well have said that isn’t the explanation, not that the pH did not rise.

 

[reef_ranch]

Those are just rods for your back.

If you turn your lights on and your corals grow and you turn them off for a month and they die. It could be that your skimmer packed up.

But if you did it 3 times and nothing else changed and your skimmer didn’t die is it reasonable to assume that maybe turning your lights off for so long could be the culprit?

Similarly If I do bolus and pH gradually goes up, I do kalk and maintain high. Come off and watch pH drop. Try balling light and pH stays around 8.2 and then s witch to bolus and up it goes and do that on a few separate occasions.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume the bolus may have been involved.

I don’t go looking for the lighting change that I never made. Or the accidental kalk dose that my wife was doing in my absence or …….

That’s where I’m coming from in my tank.
I’m not asking you to believe me.

I’ve suggest maybe trying it yourselves on that basis. You don’t have to and nobody here really has, otherwise maybe we would have had more to discuss.

The more that have the experience, the more to discuss.

What I don’t know, is how many don’t get the pH rise and if not, what’s that reason. That would be more intriguing.

I believe your observations and that you are accurately reporting them. I'm not convinced that the cause and effect you conclude from these observations is accurate. Might be, might not be. It certainly worth exploring. Maybe Claude's upcoming book I heard about will shed more scientific light on it.

 

[Mo.]

In very simple terms.

If something looks like toothpaste, smells like toothpaste and tastes like toothpaste. Maybe it is toothpaste.

Saying it’s still not toothpaste. Doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Mo.]

See, you throw in the bicarbonate explanation. I may well have said that isn’t the explanation, not that the pH did not rise.

Maybe. It certainly was in the context of bolus. And maybe I should have said the FM alk prep rather than bicarb. After what you said though, I’m assuming it is bicarb?

One day I might look back at the post. Lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In very simple terms.

If something looks like toothpaste, smells like toothpaste and tastes like toothpaste. Maybe it is toothpaste.

Saying it’s still not toothpaste. Doesn’t make sense to me.

Seriously misleading. It doesn’t smell right at all, and not everything in a tube should go in your mouth. lol

 

[Mo.]

I believe your observations and that you are accurately reporting them. I'm not convinced that the cause and effect you conclude from these observations is accurate. Might be, might not be. It certainly worth exploring. Maybe Claude's upcoming book I heard about will shed more scientific light on it.

Don’t know, but remember if you do it 3 times and you see the same phenomenon, it probably is correct.

I’m talking about cycling between kalk, balling light and bolus. Looking for another variable would be tricky to identify, that’s why there’s more mileage in others trying it.

I’m not saying to destabilise your system by keep trying this, but I eventually did it 3 times for other reasons and I can’t thank no of another reason for it.

My rooms are very well aerated. Not sure if that is a benefit or not, but generally would be for higher pH’s.

 

[Mo.]

Seriously misleading. It doesn’t smell right at all, and not everything in a tube should go in your mouth. lol

Lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe. It certainly was in the context of bolus. And maybe I should have said the FM alk prep rather than bicarb. After what you said though, I’m assuming it is bicarb?

One day I might look back at the post. Lol

FM claims other parts of the method, such as the cryptic peptide and the trace elements. No idea when and how you use them.

Welsh reefer sees a big difference from bicarbonate in use.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

If something looks like toothpaste, smells like toothpaste and tastes like toothpaste. Maybe it is toothpaste.

And if someone says, "If you use your entire day's worth of toothpaste and brush only once in the morning, it not only makes your teeth healthier, but it also makes your hair stronger," wouldn't you like to know how someone came to that conclusion?

That bold statement challenges the consensus of what toothpaste is capable of.

 

[Mo.]

Point is, a fellow bolus doser already did and claims a big difference between bicarbonate dosing and fm alk dosing in terms of pH.

If we should accept your data, you should accept his, and we should all try to reconcile the explanations.

Bolus dosing

And you have missed the context of this and countless other comments in this thread many times. Much of the "round and round" is the result. That is not being stated or argued by the vast majority of participants here (if any, in those terms). Why do you insist repeating things like that if...

www.reef2reef.com

Ok. Fair enough. I must have missed that. Then if you say fm is all bicarb, what gives? There must be …… magic crystals! Lol

 

[Mo.]

And if someone says, "If you use your entire day's worth of toothpaste and brush only once in the morning, it not only makes your teeth healthier, but it also makes your hair stronger," wouldn't you like to know how someone came to that conclusion?

That bold statement challenges the consensus of what toothpaste is capable of.

Yes, for sure!

But it wouldn’t stop me using toothpaste.







.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok. Fair enough. I must have missed that. Then if you say fm is all bicarb, what gives? There must be …… magic crystals! Lol

I don’t know where the peptide or traces come from. Does anyone know?

 

[Mo.]

FM claims other parts of the method, such as the cryptic peptide and the trace elements. No idea when and how you use them.

Welsh reefer sees a big difference from bicarbonate in use.

I can’t tell you about the peptides,

But there is huge support for trace element dosing now, by nearly all manufacturers.

I became a believer in traces when in my old tank, 2009, struggling with montipora corals, they turned around within 2 days of lugols iodine dosing.

I now use reef moonshiners. Again some of it may be blind leading the blind, but my corals just seem easier to keep and multicolored compared to what I remember before the days of icp and trace dosing.

In those days the only person doing it was Ehsan from Triton and his tank at the time was just different. Maybe it was the traces don’t know.

 

[Mo.]

I don’t know where the peptide or traces come from. Does anyone know?

I’m not sure quite wha you mean, but if you’re asking how trace elements come into their 3 part.

Claude has an icp machine and is a firm believer in trace dosing
. I’m basing this on the availability of FM trace elements in multiple formats.

One format is balling light trace elements. This comprises 3 bottles.

One of them you mix into the Alk solution- this contains halogens. . They are quite small volumes compared to the Alk dose.

The other two bottles - mainly metals are mixed together in the calcium solution.

So- all of the main trace elements get dosed automatically with the 2 or 3 part. 3rd part being magnesium.

Of course, you don’t have to add these trace elements at all. Or you can manually dose your own like the Moonshiners method. Or other.

Sorry if this is not what you meant.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I can’t tell you about the peptides,

But there is huge support for trace element dosing now, by nearly all manufacturers.

I became a believer in traces when in my old tank, 2009, struggling with montipora corals, they turned around within 2 days of lugols iodine dosing.

I now use reef moonshiners. Again some of it may be blind leading the blind, but my corals just seem easier to keep and multicolored compared to what I remember before the days of icp and trace dosing.

In those days the only person doing it was Ehsan from Triton and his tank at the time was just different. Maybe it was the traces don’t know.

I’m not doubting the use of trace elements. I just do not know where it fits into the bolus method.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m not sure quite wha you mean, but if you’re asking how trace elements come into their 3 part.

Claude has an icp machine and is a firm believer in trace dosing
. I’m basing this on the availability of FM trace elements in multiple formats.

One format is balling light trace elements. This comprises 3 bottles.

One of them you mix into the Alk solution- this contains halogens. . They are quite small volumes compared to the Alk dose.

The other two bottles - mainly metals are mixed together in the calcium solution.

So- all of the main trace elements get dosed automatically with the 2 or 3 part. 3rd part being magnesium.

Of course, you don’t have to add these trace elements at all. Or you can manually dose your own like the Moonshiners method. Or other.

Sorry if this is not what you meant.

It is. I’m not understanding how that makes a difference in the bolus pH boost Welsh Reefer sees.