Bolus dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Just to clarify in case I missed it…

When Bolus dosing bicarbonate, the pH of the bicarbonate is mid 8s? Like 8.5 or so? It is being dosed usually into the sump where the pH probe is located. This creates a momentary pocket of “high alkalinity, high pH” seawater, correct? This then reaches the pH probe and looks like a spike. It then takes “about 10 minutes” to come back down. Did anyone ever clarify how often their pH probes are reading and plotting the numbers?

Is it not entirely possible that the pH spike is simply a false reading and by the time the probe tracks and plots a change the bicarbonate has thoroughly mixed with the tank, shot up alkalinity, and thus ticked pH up slightly higher than it was before the dose?

Hopefully I spelled that out to make sense

Yes, we see such fast spikes on some posted graphs. I do not know how fast sump water mixes into the tank, but I don’t think it takes much mixing (without aeration) for the pH to drop back to normal and below. That should happen in the sump alone.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I suppose if aeration in the sump is high and fast, faster than mixing into the display, the pH in the sump could rise considerably before leaving the sump.

 

[Mo.]

Your Alk consumption has increased from 0.4 to 1 DKH. This alone shows an increase in photosynthesis is likely, nevermind the thousands of other variables. For example, you say you are feeding shed loads, does this mean the tangs have stopped scavenging the rocks? Have your snails bit the dust? Has water clarity increased? Were you previously nutrient limited? The list goes on. Did you find a reason for the temperature difference in your sump, compared to the tank?

The sump is covered with lids. Its always run a bit higher temp.

The rocks and glass look the same. Rocks are clean. No real algae pests just yet.

The same variables apply to most dosing situations that I’ve tried. I’ve gone back and forth a few times , so the conditions have been similar between methods.

Given the back and forth and repeated observations is what makes me think there’s mileage in the dosing method.

Why I observe pH peak up to 8.48, I have no idea. It’s been pretty stable at that peak pH. 8.22-8.48

I can understand with kalk, it surprised me with bicarb.

 

[Mo.]

Yes, we see such fast spikes on some posted graphs. I do not know how fast sump water mixes into the tank, but I don’t think it takes much mixing (without aeration) for the pH to drop back to normal and below. That should happen in the sump alone.

This is a fair point from some of the previous graphs posted and I thought the same. The spikes looked pretty high and rapidly adjusted. Hence the suggestion to try the probe in the main tank.

My situation is slightly different.

I does the bolus with a Versa doser into one of the weir boxes.

The return flow in my sump is from 3 Abyzz 400 running at approx 50%. That’s around 24,000 litres per hour.(nearly 6500 Gallons/ hr) the alk dose goes into the chamber where all this water returns and flows to the large skimmer chamber, before hitting the said Abyzz pumps in the return chamber, which is 12ft away. The probes hang in the return chamber beyond the Abyzz pumps.

Whilst the pH bump might not be large, I don’t believe it can be completely artefact in my situation.

 

[areefer01]

This is a fair point from some of the previous graphs posted and I thought the same. The spikes looked pretty high and rapidly adjusted. Hence the suggestion to try the probe in the main tank.

My situation is slightly different.

I does the bolus with a Versa doser into one of the weir boxes.

The return flow in my sump is from 3 Abyzz 400 running at approx 50%. That’s around 24,000 litres per hour.(nearly 6500 Gallons/ hr) the alk dose goes into the chamber where all this water returns and flows to the large skimmer chamber, before hitting the said Abyzz pumps in the return chamber, which is 12ft away. The probes hang in the return chamber beyond the Abyzz pumps.

Whilst the pH bump might not be large, I don’t believe it can be completely artefact in my situation.

Maybe you should post some images of your bolus display? At the end of the day if you are using it, and it works, and it makes you feel good, who cares what everyone else thinks? Honest question.

I don't know - this thread makes me dizzy.

 

[Mo.]

The effect on pH for total alk is not dependent on whether the alk spikes to that alk, or is stable there. There is no max to the pH that is obtainable from total alk and aeration except as other process begin to limit it, such as precipitation of calcium carbonate.

Wouldn’t the buffering capacity of the bicarbonate resist the rise and fall of pH as it reaches the pKa value ? Maybe form carbonate and precipitate as you try and dose much more?

 

[Mo.]

Maybe you should post some images of your bolus display? At the end of the day if you are using it, and it works, and it makes you feel good, who cares what everyone else thinks? Honest question.

I don't know - this thread makes me dizzy.

Sorry- what do you mean by bolus display? The display tank?

 

[areefer01]

Sorry- what do you mean by bolus display? The display tank?

Yes. I don't want to assume you have one or they are tied together.

 

[Mo.]

Yes. I don't want to assume you have one or they are tied together.

Saying “show us your tank” is banned on this thread. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

I have had several tanks. The current one is on this thread….

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mo’s-reef-2.867448/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wouldn’t the buffering capacity of the bicarbonate resist the rise and fall of pH as it reaches the pKa value ? Maybe form carbonate and precipitate as you try and dose much more?

The bicarbonate/carbonate buffering of pH peaks at the pKa, about 8.55, and is lower on either side of that.

 

[Superlightman]

We’ve seen a fellow bolus doser here suggest bicarbonate bolus dosing does not boost pH but the FM product does.

I have no idea if that is true, but if so, that would seem to have lots of implications, including that all of the special explanations that relate to bicarbonate itself are not true, and that it’s not even apparent that the actual bolus has anything to do with it.

Thoughts?

Claude never said that the effect came from his products only. He said it comes from bicarbonate dosing.But he said he can't recommend other brands. Which is normal, no other brand will recommend competitor products. It has also nothing to do with the peptide, which has other purpose on the health of the tank. But user may see better results using his products because his products seems to give better results than products without the peptide and added traces elements ( this I read in chats in Germany before bolus already when people compared homemade receipt vs the FM). The added trace will help as corals will need more because of the light boost. But the main effect come from the bicarbonate and this should be possible with every PUR brand of bicarbonate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Saying “show us your tank” is banned on this thread. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

I have had several tanks. The current one is on this thread….

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mo’s-reef-2.867448/

Just for any reader who may not know, nothing about showing tanks is literally banned.

It’s just that showing a tank that uses it or any technique says nothing about whether that technique is a positive effect, a negative effect, or not effect at all. Without a direct comparator tank not using that technique, the picture only shows that using the technique allows a tank to be as nice as the one pictured. :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Claude never said that the effect came from his products only. He said it comes from bicarbonate dosing.But he said he can't recommend other brands. Which is normal, no other brand will recommend competitor products. It has also nothing to do with the peptide, which has other purpose on the health of the tank. But user may see better results using his products because his products seems to give better results than products without the peptide and added traces elements ( this I read in chats in Germany before bolus already when people compared homemade receipt vs the FM). The added trace will help as corals will need more because of the light boost. But the main effect come from the bicarbonate and this should be possible with every PUR brand of bicarbonate.

I don’t doubt that, but Welsh Reefer has stated he saw a pH difference, and we are left not understanding.

 

[Superlightman]

I don’t doubt that, but Welsh Reefer has stated he saw a pH difference, and we are left not understanding.

i'm very skeptical about this, but it could be that the added products makes it a bit better.

 

[areefer01]

Saying “show us your tank” is banned on this thread. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

Oh, didn't know. It wasn't the challenge reefing card btw. That wouldn't be cool. It was more of a tongue and cheek comment. Share your display, say you do it because you like it, and be done. I don't think you will change any opinions here for those who do not like it or want FM to be more open in the discussion.

In short - there is a lot of hostility as I've read through the pages and I can't see you tempering them.

I have had several tanks. The current one is on this thread….

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mo’s-reef-2.867448/

Cool - thanks. Hope your day is well.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

i'm very skeptical about this, but it could be that the added products makes it a bit better.

FWIW, it also opens up the whole issue of how reliably folks can say what improves pH in a complex world where lots of things impact pH and pH measurements, and what exactly is being compared to what.

 

[Mo.]

Oh, didn't know. It wasn't the challenge reefing card btw. That wouldn't be cool. It was more of a tongue and cheek comment. Share your display, say you do it because you like it, and be done. I don't think you will change any opinions here for those who do not like it or want FM to be more open in the discussion.

In short - there is a lot of hostility as I've read through the pages and I can't see you tempering them.



Cool - thanks. Hope your day is well.

I was kidding. I believe we should show tanks. That’s what this forum is about. It was a cheeky reference to previous posts- but all in good fun.

Have a nice day as well.

 

[Garf]

I see a glaring problem here. If Mo's observations are correct at 1 DKH Bolus, and the aim is to maintain 8.2 to 8.4pH, it's failed. At 3DKH this surely would take the tank into precipitation city (which is evil). I feel this last vestige of unproved cobblers is one huge red herring, swimming in a pool of fairy pee. The normal actions for high pH apply here. The first being Is your pH accurate?
For what it's worth, I hope @Welsh Reefer. turns up soon, as we questioned his probe calibration and he was running side by side tests this week (Fauna / Cooking bicarb + trace).

 

[Mo.]

FWIW, it also opens up the whole issue of how reliably folks can say what improves pH in a complex world where lots of things impact pH and pH measurements, and what exactly is being compared to what.

True indeed!

 

[Mo.]

I see a glaring problem here. If Mo's observations are correct at 1 DKH Bolus, and the aim is to maintain 8.2 to 8.4pH, it's failed. At 3DKH this surely would take the tank into precipitation city (which is evil). I feel this last vestige of unproved cobblers is one huge red herring, swimming in a pool of fairy pee. The normal actions for high pH apply here. The first being Is your pH accurate?
For what it's worth, I hope @Welsh Reefer. turns up soon, as we questioned his probe calibration and he was running side by side tests this week (Fauna / Cooking bicarb + trace).

My pH is 8.22-8.48.
I’m happy with that. Maybe slightly higher than suggested….

Multiple recalibrations are probably not helpful either. It is what it is and was consistent with kalk and balling light as well as bolus. No reason to think bolus has knocked it out of calibration and it’s consistent with a Hanna pH pen as well.

I don’t see much precipitation.
Not many tanks will get to 3 dkh per day?
If I do, I’ll be sure to add some fairy pee. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:


Mo