Bolus dosing

[djf91]

Regardless of the definition, or even how it arises, why do we care about it? Lots of folks dose it as coral snow.

I don’t really care about the definition either. All I was getting at was that I’m trying to reduce detritus accumulation in my system and calcium carbonate precipitation seems to be a large component of it in some systems. If my dosing scheme is adding to that, then maybe tweaking it can reduce detritus.

I found it interesting that those doing the bolus dosing thing are reporting less detritus accumulation. What could be behind this?

 

[Oldreefer44]

I don’t really care about the definition either. All I was getting at was that I’m trying to reduce detritus accumulation in my system and calcium carbonate precipitation seems to be a large component of it in some systems. If my dosing scheme is adding to that, then maybe tweaking it can reduce detritus.

I found it interesting that those doing the bolus dosing thing are reporting less detritus accumulation. What could be behind this?

One of the reasons I tried it. Prior to switching I was getting a buildup of detritus on the sand bed. My unscientific theory was that it was due to high Ca levels that AFR produced relative to Alk levels. No sign of it now.

 

[djf91]

One of the reasons I tried it. Prior to switching I was getting a buildup of detritus on the sand bed. My unscientific theory was that it was due to high Ca levels that AFR produced relative to Alk levels. No sign of it now.

That’s great to hear. Thank you.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t really care about the definition either. All I was getting at was that I’m trying to reduce detritus accumulation in my system and calcium carbonate precipitation seems to be a large component of it in some systems. If my dosing scheme is adding to that, then maybe tweaking it can reduce detritus.

I found it interesting that those doing the bolus dosing thing are reporting less detritus accumulation. What could be behind this?

Depends on what they switched from, but even with high pH boosting precipitation, it is usually on surfaces like sand or pump impellers.

Bicarbonate bolus vs bicarbonate spread out seems unlikely in any way that I can think of, to result in less calcium carbonate precipitation .

 

[djf91]

Depends on what they switched from, but even with high pH boosting precipitation, it is usually on surfaces like sand or pump impellers.

Bicarbonate bolus vs bicarbonate spread out seems unlikely in any way that I can think of, to result in less calcium carbonate precipitation .

Do you think if my 2 part dosing was too close together in time and too close to where I have a continuous dose of kalkwasser dripping it could cause precipitation? I use ESV bionic.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you think if my 2 part dosing was too close together in time and too close to where I have a continuous dose of kalkwasser dripping it could cause precipitation? I use ESV bionic.

If the concentrated clouds mixed together before diluting, or if the alk part alone is mixed in too slowly, that can cause precipitation.

 

[Dan Reef]

This is a very interesting discussion that should take apart from bolus dosing FM products.

Should we dive in investigating more about the many alk additive options related to detritus accumulation?

Carbonates, bicarbonates, kalkwasser, all for reef, other hydroxides, etc

Many of us was caught by the high pH hype thinking only good could happen but detritus accumulation was not part of that discussion.

 

[Oldreefer44]

As promised here are pre and post bolus ICP results. The charts include any trace element that was not in line with the suggested parameter. The bottom 2 are from Reef Labs and Oceamo. The top from Reef Labs. The bottom 2 represent results after about 18 months of AFR and 6 of using Kalkwasser. The time frame for Bolus is just over 7 months. 3 of the 4 deficient elements using Bolus are included in the FM trace elements to be mixed into the calcium container. For whatever reason, even though I consider my system medium to be moderately to heavily stocked, my dosage of ca mix (20ml per day) is way below what FM suggests which is 60 ml per day.
Make of it what you will.

BOLUS	1/23/2024​		Reef Labs
	Element	Status	Measured	Optimal Range	Possible Effect	Correction	FM trace 1	fm trace 2
	Cobalt	deficient	not detected	0.0005 - 0.003 mg/L	reduced growth, poor color, poor immune health	trace element additives	no	no
	Manganese	deficient	not detected	0.0001 - 0.002 mg/L	reduced polyp extension, poor growth	trace element additives	no	yes
	Nickel	deficient	not detected	0.003 - 0.008 mg/L	poor growth and reduced coloration	trace element additives	no	yes
	Vanadium	deficient	not detected	0.002 - 0.008 mg/L	poor coloration, growth and nutrient uptake	trace element additives	yes	no
AFR	6/15/2024​		Reef Labs
	Boron	deficient	3.489 mg/L	4 - 5 mg/L		trace element additive
	Cobalt	deficient	not detected	0.0005 - 0.003 mg/L	reduced growth, poor color, poor immune health	trace element additives
	Iodine	deficient	0.045 mg/L	0.050 - 0.090 mg/L	reduced growth, poor coloration	trace element additive
	Manganese	high	0.0294 mg/L	0.0001 - 0.002 mg/L		GFO
	Strontium	high	27.40 mg/L	7 - 10 mg/L	toxicity	water change
	Vanadium	deficient	not detected	0.002 - 0.008 mg/L	poor coloration, growth and nutrient uptake	trace element additives
	Zinc	deficient	0.001 mg/L	0.002 - 0.006 mg/L	poor growth and coloration, accumulation nutrients	trace element additives
AFR	7/8/2024​		Oceamo
	Boron	deficient	3	4.4
	Strontium	high	20.1	7.9
	Chromium	deficient	0.11	.2-.5
	Cobalt	high	0.44	.05-.02
	Flouride	deficient	0.79	1.3
	Lithium	high	315	50-150
	Molybdenum	high	41.5	10.0-15.0
	Nickel	high	10.19	2.0-5.0
	Vanadium	Deficient	1.54	2.0-3.0

 

[ReneReef]

Thanks but in our very loose aquarium definition of detritus, calcium carbonate precipitate is grouped in. This isn’t something new I just came up with.

What is detritus exactly?

Hey so what exactly is the makeup of detritus and is it inert?

www.reef2reef.com

Ah of course, those “loose aquarium definitions”…

Do those “loose aquarium definitions” include a peptide that can increase the carbonate content of bicarbonate by over 50%?
Or the beneficial bacteria in Vibrant that turned out to be just an algicide?
Or the bacterium killing products that are “not antibiotics”?
Or reef safe dino remedies that kill stony corals?

These “loose aquarium definitions” are harming our animals.
Let’s not put fuel on that fire.

Calcium carbonate is inorganic dust.
Inorganic dust is part of marine snow, as is detritus.

 

[Koleswrath]

I'm going to jump in here after reading this thread over the past week.
I began reading it because I was interested in trying the Bolus method for the claimed algae and detritus reduction that Paletta saw. I realize he likes to try different methods and new trends and may slightly exaggerate results but I doubt he outright lies about them so I figured this would fit my needs because of a few of the observed benefits he mentions:
- He's seen a reduction in the amount floc coming off his rocks.
-He's seen a reduction (or elimination?) of the free floating "precipitations" that seem to always be blowing around.

Adam at Frag Garage's anecdotal report that the tank he's running Bolus on is noticeably "tidier" (less algae) was the other bit that peaked my interest.

My main focus was trying to figure out why these guys are seeing these "cleanliness" results because the explanations from Claude and Doug are all over the place. Unfortunately this was only brought up once or twice in the 2369!! posts in this whole thread!!!!

My question to you learned folks out there is this:
Assuming high PH additives or an overly high system PH forms precipitates in tiny amounts fairly regularly (safe to assume?) day after day and slowly build up (along with any minerals or organics they adsorb (is that the right word?) on the rock work or aragonite sand.......could this fuel algae on the rocks or cyano in the sand either directly or through bacterial action indirectly?
I remember reading through the old Algae thread on reef central and phosphate being precipitated to live rock and corresponding bacterial floc releasing it was a huge subject that was very interesting to me.
If this does happen, could switching from kalk to bicarbonate help problem algae tanks in the long run (bolus or no bolus)? I'd willingly take a lower PH if I didn't have to pick tiny valonia off my rocks with a dental pick every water change.
Would there be any experiments we could perform to test this hypothesis? I'm ready and willing with 2 years of Kalk use and if Claude and Doug are right a ticking time bomb of a reef tank....(not really of course, that's silly.)
Thanks all! I've enjoyed the read regardless.
Greg

 

[djf91]

I'm going to jump in here after reading this thread over the past week.
I began reading it because I was interested in trying the Bolus method for the claimed algae and detritus reduction that Paletta saw. I realize he likes to try different methods and new trends and may slightly exaggerate results but I doubt he outright lies about them so I figured this would fit my needs because of a few of the observed benefits he mentions:
- He's seen a reduction in the amount floc coming off his rocks.
-He's seen a reduction (or elimination?) of the free floating "precipitations" that seem to always be blowing around.

Adam at Frag Garage's anecdotal report that the tank he's running Bolus on is noticeably "tidier" (less algae) was the other bit that peaked my interest.

My main focus was trying to figure out why these guys are seeing these "cleanliness" results because the explanations from Claude and Doug are all over the place. Unfortunately this was only brought up once or twice in the 2369!! posts in this whole thread!!!!

My question to you learned folks out there is this:
Assuming high PH additives or an overly high system PH forms precipitates in tiny amounts fairly regularly (safe to assume?) day after day and slowly build up (along with any minerals or organics they adsorb (is that the right word?) on the rock work or aragonite sand.......could this fuel algae on the rocks or cyano in the sand either directly or through bacterial action indirectly?
I remember reading through the old Algae thread on reef central and phosphate being precipitated to live rock and corresponding bacterial floc releasing it was a huge subject that was very interesting to me.
If this does happen, could switching from kalk to bicarbonate help problem algae tanks in the long run (bolus or no bolus)? I'd willingly take a lower PH if I didn't have to pick tiny valonia off my rocks with a dental pick every water change.
Would there be any experiments we could perform to test this hypothesis? I'm ready and willing with 2 years of Kalk use and if Claude and Doug are right a ticking time bomb of a reef tank....(not really of course, that's silly.)
Thanks all! I've enjoyed the read regardless.
Greg

This is what I’m curious about as well. I don’t have any nuisance algae or cyano but my corals are noticeably happier when I remove large amounts of detritus from the system.

 

[twentyleagues]

This is what I’m curious about as well. I don’t have any nuisance algae or cyano but my corals are noticeably happier when I remove large amounts of detritus from the system.

How are you removing large amounts of detritus from the system? Water change? other method?

 

[djf91]

How are you removing large amounts of detritus from the system? Water change? other method?

Siphoning the sand bed and any accumulation at the bottom of my sumps. Also blowing the rockwork with a power head and filter socks

 

[Garf]

Also blowing the rockwork with a power head

Accumulation is normal with rock full of small holes, settlement sites. Don't know why you think it's anything to do with dosing schedules except for some of the "info" Fauna comes out with.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is what I’m curious about as well. I don’t have any nuisance algae or cyano but my corals are noticeably happier when I remove large amounts of detritus from the system.

Curious. How are you assessing that they like you removing detritus?

 

[djf91]

Curious. How are you assessing that they like you removing detritus?

Better polyp extension on my Acropora, fuller bodies on my soft corals, better coloration overall. Slightly better growth too.

I know already people are going to argue that this things don’t mean healthier corals, but I disagree.

 

[djf91]

Accumulation is normal with rock full of small holes, settlement sites. Don't know why you think it's anything to do with dosing schedules except for some of the "info" Fauna comes out with.

Which is why I’m asking in this thread about peoples experiences with detritus, bolus dosing, etc.

Not sure why there’s so much hostility.

I’m not even necessarily advocating for bolus dosing, just trying to figure out if I have may have a precipitation issue with my 2 part + kalkwasser.

 

[Garf]

Which is why I’m asking in this thread about peoples experiences with detritus, bolus dosing, etc.

Not sure why there’s so much hostility.

No hostility intended. I've just watched Mike Paletta praising the wonders of Bolus on reducing detritus, then he mentions he's also put a couple of Abyzz cannons on his his tank, lol.

 

[djf91]

No hostility intended. I've just watched Mike Paletta praising the wonders of Bolus on reducing detritus, then he mentions he's also put a couple of Abyzz cannons on his his tank, lol.

I completely agree. That certainly could be it. Mike Paletta makes too many changes for even himself to keep track of. But maybe there’s something there also.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Better polyp extension on my Acropora, fuller bodies on my soft corals, better coloration overall. Slightly better growth too.

I know already people are going to argue that this things don’t mean healthier corals, but I disagree.

Did that happen within an hour of detritus removal (in which case it may be they wanted to eat stirred up detritus) or something that built over many days as something released or bound by detritus was no longer happening?