Bolus dosing

[Garf]

this is why there is no answer yet. Claude works with scientist on the topic to be able to explain it scientifically in more details soon.

I think you should read the rest of this thread, lol.

Edit - Randy has a summary in post #2

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

- if I understand it right, they are no crystals.. In the product, but the bicarbonate in the reef tank create a kind of crystals that are released later in the tank and make a delay response and explain the bolus effect
- the mechanism is complicated and at the beginning they saw the positive results but don't understand exactly how it works, this is why there is no answer yet. Claude works with scientist on the topic to be able to explain it scientifically in more details soon.

We’ve seen folks relate that fantasy in earlier posts. It’s not reasonable science.

 

[areefer01]

We’ve seen folks relate that fantasy in earlier posts. It’s not reasonable science.

But what if it just makes them feel good?

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I’ve read the documentation about this method, and while it suggests that large alkalinity spikes don’t harm corals, this might hold true primarily for LPS and soft corals. However, many of us have observed the effects of alkalinity spikes on sensitive SPS corals first-hand. While I’ve never lost an SPS coral outright due to a spike, I’ve seen issues like burned tips and other stress-related symptoms appear within days.

If the spike itself isn’t the direct cause, then what is?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’ve read the documentation about this method, and while it suggests that large alkalinity spikes don’t harm corals, this might hold true primarily for LPS and soft corals. However, many of us have observed the effects of alkalinity spikes on sensitive SPS corals first-hand. While I’ve never lost an SPS coral outright due to a spike, I’ve seen issues like burned tips and other stress-related symptoms appear within days.

If the spike itself isn’t the direct cause, then what is?

I don't think anyone has perfect answers to these sorts of questions, but I do think there may be a difference between a daily occurrence of a change in alk from once a day dosing, and a sudden spike in alk for a coral that is not adapted to that sort of spike.

 

[Mo.]

I’ve read the documentation about this method, and while it suggests that large alkalinity spikes don’t harm corals, this might hold true primarily for LPS and soft corals. However, many of us have observed the effects of alkalinity spikes on sensitive SPS corals first-hand. While I’ve never lost an SPS coral outright due to a spike, I’ve seen issues like burned tips and other stress-related symptoms appear within days.

If the spike itself isn’t the direct cause, then what is?

.
Nice to see the thread running.

Do they say the bolus causes an allk spike in their documentation? Could you reference it for me to read please?


Cheers
Mo

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

.
Nice to see the thread running.

Do they say the bolus causes an allk spike in their documentation? Could you reference it for me to read please?


Cheers
Mo

Nothing was done to fix it, the alk just left to come down naturally.

it doesn't say spike but it does say the following "It can be a little daunting to dose a large amount of alkalinity in a single dose, we reefers have been programmed to believe that swings in alkalinity kill corals, this is not true."

As I said above many have seen the results of swings first hand on sensitive sps corals. It does not necessarily kill them but it certainly causes issues like burned tips in my experience.

There is nothing new or fancy about this "Bolus" method and I have always known that you can dump all your alk in one go and most corals would not care. But I certainly wouldn't do this in a tank full of fancy Acropora.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

.
Nice to see the thread running.

Do they say the bolus causes an allk spike in their documentation? Could you reference it for me to read please?


Cheers
Mo

Their own data shows it. They have some wild assertions about about why it isn't as large as one might expect, but it's clearly a spike. Others have explained that missing part of the boost is perhaps a misunderstanding about the potency of the product.

Bolus dosing

Typically high Levels of bromide impurity in many Magnesium salts Thanks, Christoph. I did use magnesium from the Dead Sea works to boost my new salt water somewhat since I used only kalkwasser for calcium and alk. I’m not sure that can explain the result, but maybe. This is the analysis...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Garf]

Do they say the bolus causes an allk spike

Well, it's only half a spike, lol. If I were being a skeptic I would think that the only way the bolus "works", is by stressing the coral into reduction of calcification during the daylight cycle. This partially hides the fact that the alkalinity supplement is not as potent as described by Fauna. Without this stress event, alkalinity would likely plummet. The evidence for this stress event forms the tabletop effect, which has given rise to a series of make believe chemistry "facts".

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, it's only half a spike, lol. If I were being a skeptic I would think that the only way the bolus "works", is by stressing the coral into reduction of calcification during the daylight cycle. This partially hides the fact that the alkalinity supplement is not as potent as described by Fauna. Without this stress event, alkalinity would likely plummet. The evidence for this stress event forms the tabletop effect, which has given rise to a series of make believe chemistry "facts".

As far as I understand from a limited set of data provided by users of this method or product, that seems very plausible to me.

I just do not understand why no one pushing this method has provided some rationale experiments to understand the effects instead of going to Mystery Science Theater 3000 to try to explain it.

In case they have been lost in the last few thousand posts in this thread, I'll summarize a set here.

1. Dose FM alk to a tank using this method and track alk and pH over 24 h. We are close to having this. All night measurements are not needed, but alk and pH before bolus and through the light cycle is critical. Make sure the needed dose is large enough to easily distinguish the alk boost size reproducibly.

2. Dose the same FM alk supplement into a beaker, look for the alk boost (I have that exact data; it matches sodium bicarbonate). Verify that it matches sodium bicarbonate (or not). Verify if it matches the FM calculator and/or predictions (or not).

3. Compare the alk rise in 1 and 2. Is any alk "missing" in the tank boost?

4. Repeat 1-3 with pure sodium bicarbonate.

5. Compare the pH over 24 h when dosing sodium bicarbonate in a spread out fashion to maintain the alk at the bottom of the daily alk swing obtained in 1. That is, at the alk present just before the bolus dose in 1.

6. Compare the pH over 24 h when dosing sodium bicarbonate in a spread out fashion to maintain alk at the top of the daily alk swing obtained in 1. That is, the alk maintained at the table top alk concentration in 1.

Steps 1-4 help understand the nature and reasons for the table top effect.

Steps 5 and 6 evaluate if the bolus causes a pH rise (or drop) relative to nonbolus of the same product, and if so, in what way and in what scenarios.

After seeing that data, there may be other useful experiments, but these would go a long way to clarifying the pH and alk effects of 'bolus" dosing.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

As far as I understand from a limited set of data provided by users of this method or product, that seems very plausible to me.

I just do not understand why no one pushing this method has provided some rationale experiments to understand the effects instead of going to Mystery Science Theater 3000 to try to explain it.

In case they have been lost in the last few thousand posts in this thread, I'll summarize a set here.

1. Dose FM alk to a tank using this method and track alk and pH over 24 h. We are close to having this. All night measurements are not needed, but alk and pH before bolus and through the light cycle is critical. Make sure the needed dose is large enough to easily distinguish the alk boost size reproducibly.

2. Dose the same FM alk supplement into a beaker, look for the alk boost (I have that exact data; it matches sodium bicarbonate). Verify that it matches sodium bicarbonate (or not). Verify if it matches the FM calculator and/or predictions (or not).

3. Compare the alk rise in 1 and 2. Is any alk "missing" in the tank boost?

4. Repeat 1-3 with pure sodium bicarbonate.

5. Compare the pH over 24 h when dosing sodium bicarbonate in a spread out fashion to maintain the alk at the bottom of the daily alk swing obtained in 1. That is, at the alk present just before the bolus dose in 1.

6. Compare the pH over 24 h when dosing sodium bicarbonate in a spread out fashion to maintain alk at the top of the daily alk swing obtained in 1. That is, the alk maintained at the table top alk concentration in 1.

Steps 1-4 help understand the nature and reasons for the table top effect.

Steps 5 and 6 evaluate if the bolus causes a pH rise (or drop) relative to nonbolus of the same product, and if so, in what way and in what scenarios.

After seeing that data, there may be other useful experiments, but these would go a long way to clarifying the pH and alk effects of 'bolus" dosing.

 

[Reign1]

Well this thread is interesting. Now Reefbum is adopting Bolus dosing and recently came out with a new video stating this . I am sure that since he is a consultant for FM that may have been a factor. He is a very experienced reefer so he has pretty sound logic.

 

[Aaron Stone]

Well this thread is interesting. Now Reefbum is adopting Bolus dosing and recently came out with a new video stating this . I am sure that since he is a consultant for FM that may have been a factor. He is a very experienced reefer so he has pretty sound logic.

One wonders if it is reef logic or pocketbook logic driving that decision.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’ll just reiterate for folks who have not read the last 88 pages, I have nothing against the method itself. I do not know how or if it is better or worse than the many other methods folks use.

What I do have a huge problem with is the science fiction used to “explain” it.

 

[rtparty]

.
Nice to see the thread running.

Do they say the bolus causes an allk spike in their documentation? Could you reference it for me to read please?


Cheers
Mo

Definitely not “running”

The train flew right off the cliff and exploded spectacularly. What’s left is the burning embers from the Bolus dose of fuel from when the train landed

 

[rtparty]

I’ve read the documentation about this method, and while it suggests that large alkalinity spikes don’t harm corals, this might hold true primarily for LPS and soft corals. However, many of us have observed the effects of alkalinity spikes on sensitive SPS corals first-hand. While I’ve never lost an SPS coral outright due to a spike, I’ve seen issues like burned tips and other stress-related symptoms appear within days.

If the spike itself isn’t the direct cause, then what is?

In the last 20 years of my reefing journey and most of that being far too active on forums, I can think of hundreds of alkalinity overdoses. I can’t actively recall one where they lost the whole tank or even a partial crash. I’m sure they are out there and I’d bet they were soda ash.

My opinion is that it is the giant pH swing and not the alkalinity swing.

I mean 20 years ago we were all dumping in bicarbonate in one go. 100, 200, 300ml or more in one go. Dosing pumps were not cheap and easy to get.

 

[Pod_01]

I mean 20 years ago we were all dumping in bicarbonate in one go. 100, 200, 300ml or more in one go. Dosing pumps were not cheap and easy to get.

Out of curiosity, was that in the morning, lunch. evening or any time one remembered?

Interesting pH comment, I know one reefer that by accident dumped soda ash and he only lost some zoas, SPS did just fine. Head scratcher… I figured his tank was done for.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Out of curiosity, was that in the morning, lunch. evening or any time one remembered?

Interesting pH comment, I know one reefer that by accident dumped soda ash and he only lost some zoas, SPS did just fine. Head scratcher… I figured his tank was done for.

One potential follow up relates to soft corals such as zooanthids and pH. I think I'll start a new thread for that discussion:

Soft coral growth rate and pH

While most reefers accept that many hard corals grow faster at higher pH, the same may not be true of soft corals. What do you see in your reef tank with respect to soft coral growth vs pH (if anything)? Hard corals have the challenging task of depositing calcium carbonate skeletons, and...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Aaron Stone]

In the last 20 years of my reefing journey and most of that being far too active on forums, I can think of hundreds of alkalinity overdoses. I can’t actively recall one where they lost the whole tank or even a partial crash. I’m sure they are out there and I’d bet they were soda ash.

My opinion is that it is the giant pH swing and not the alkalinity swing.

I mean 20 years ago we were all dumping in bicarbonate in one go. 100, 200, 300ml or more in one go. Dosing pumps were not cheap and easy to get.

Absolutely. I did "bolus" dosing before it was cool. And it worked up until I started using a substantial amount. Then I invested in a doser and started seeing better results. Poor results on the "bolus" was probably partly attributable to my haphazard schedule.

But after all the countless discussions, tank threads, and demonstrative results I think we can all agree that there is more than one way to skin this cat.

I was listening to Doug Dorrat speaking on the Beyond the Reef podcast and just couldn't believe the audacity and condescension of what he was saying. In summary: "People who use kalk or any other method of dosing alk/ca are stupid. Their tanks are going to crash at some nebulous point in the future because it causes old tank syndrome as well as algae/biofilm issues. Only by dosing in my method will your corals truly develop, you will avoid old tank syndrome, and you will have no nuisance algae issues.". Seriously; the "My tanks just look prettier" line killed me.

Given the level of condescension and pseudoscience I filed this one under cult/conspiracy theory.

If you read all that, then thanks. It was cathartic.

 

[Oldreefer44]

And yet many of us are happily enjoying improved results after adopting Bolus. Noticed that not only Reef Bum but also Frag Garage has adopted it recently. Would love to see a "scientific analysis" of the actual ingredients and their impact. While we're at it, lets include all the other products in our hobby that claim to have specific results that are largely unproveable without long and expensive experimentation.