Bolus dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Typically high Levels of bromide impurity in many Magnesium salts

Thanks, Christoph. I did use magnesium from the Dead Sea works to boost my new salt water somewhat since I used only kalkwasser for calcium and alk. I’m not sure that can explain the result, but maybe.

This is the analysis they provided for a product similar (not exactly) to what I used:

Element Typical(ppm) Maximum(ppm)

Mg 115000(11.5%) 125000 (12.5%)
Ca 7000 8000
Br 5000 8000
K 2500 3500
S(SO42-) 180 200
Sr 120 150
B 20 30
Li 10 15
N* 4 5
Si 9 15
Fe 3 10
P 2 3
Mn 2 3
Al 1 3
Ba 1 2
Co <1
Cr <1
Cu <1
F <1
Mo <1
Ni <1
Se <1
V <1
Zn <1
As <0.1
Hg <0.1
Pb <0.1
Cd <0.01
I n.a
Rb n.a

Thus, every time I added 100 ppm magnesium to new salt water, it boosted bromide by about 5-6 ppm. Thus I’m not sure I see a way to get greatly elevated bromide this way.

 

[Christoph]

the consumption of Bromide is usually very low, so it will accumulate. For this reason i also dont see any reason for additional bromide when the lights turn on. - Im rather sure your Mg product was the source of your elevated readings back then!

All the best,
Christoph

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

the consumption of Bromide is usually very low, so it will accumulate. For this reason i also dont see any reason for additional bromide when the lights turn on. - Im rather sure your Mg product was the source of your elevated readings back then!

All the best,
Christoph

Yes, but I did not dose it to the tank, just to the new salt water that I used for ~1% daily water changes. Thus, I don't see how it could ever give a level higher in the tank than it gave in the new salt water. It might have had higher bromide level than that specification, but it would need to be pretty high if it was the only source.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Perhaps I've just lost track of it, but has anyone in this thread dosed real bicarbonate and monitored alk over the next 24 h?

I know we talked about it, but I don't remember seeing it.

 

[Skep18]

Perhaps I've just lost track of it, but has anyone in this thread dosed real bicarbonate and monitored alk over the next 24 h?

I know we talked about it, but I don't remember seeing it.

Are we talking bolus or traditional dosing?

If you're talking bolus, the slide below is from the Frag Garage Corals interview with Claude Schuhmacher & Doug Dorrat on bolus. Unfortunately the y-axis values showing the actual level of alk is not legible but the values show the alk over the course of a day. I'm not sure how the beginning of the day is so low and the end of the day (22:00 on the graph?) is so high but this is their plot of their data. Perhaps it falls that much each night to end up back at the lower value each day... Despite claims in the second video that measuring at night and in the morning shouldn't matter. Idk.

Source at the relevant time stamp: YouTube Video

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are we talking bolus or traditional dosing?

Bolus. I'm hoping to see some clear evaluation of the FM claim that alk is stable during the light cycle after dosing bicarbonate.

There are a host of provably wrong chemical assertions by FM, combined with a lot of ordinary known effects of dosing.

The only one, IMO, that is both experimentally testable and out of the ordinary is this claim:

"It is common for the alkalinity to rise up high and remain high and constant for a large part of the photoperiod. This ‘Table-top’ effect where the alkalinity will plateau is a feature of the Bolus method and creates a remarkably stable alkalinity throughout the photoperiod. If you have the means of measuring this phenomenon it is evidence that the Bolus method is working as it should in your tank"

That is, IMO, the only thing in this method that seems worth testing. Not because I think it is a "feature of the bolus method" if one uses real bicarbonate, but because it is a big part of the claim and anyone can test it with sufficient time on their hands. IMO, either alk is stable regardless of bolus dosing or it is unstable. But some experiments are always better to convince people than my assertions.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are we talking bolus or traditional dosing?

If you're talking bolus, the slide below is from the Frag Garage Corals interview with Claude Schuhmacher & Doug Dorrat on bolus. Unfortunately the y-axis values showing the actual level of alk is not legible but the values show the alk over the course of a day. I'm not sure how the beginning of the day is so low and the end of the day (22:00 on the graph?) is so high but this is their plot of their data. Perhaps it falls that much each night to end up back at the lower value each day... Despite claims in the second video that measuring at night and in the morning shouldn't matter. Idk.

Source at the relevant time stamp: YouTube Video

I'm hoping for a test with actual bicarbonate, not the FM product which seems to have many differing descriptions and components, which lead to different interpretations.

I'd also like to see it compared to something else, such as dosing through the night of the same total bicarbonate.

 

[Skep18]

Bolus. I'm hoping to see some clear evaluation of the FM claim that alk is stable during the light cycle after dosing bicarbonate.

I updated my post with the FM claimed data. I'm sure seeing it from independent users to support the claim is important though. I'm drawing from memory from watching that video weeks ago but as I recall, Doug Dorrat mentioned obtaining that data from some brand of alk monitor that tested 24 times a day or something.

 

[Skep18]

I'm hoping for a test with actual bicarbonate, not the FM product which has many differing descriptions and components, which lead to different interpretations.

I'd also like to see it compared to something else, such as dosing through the night of the same total bicarbonate.

Fair.

 

[Pod_01]

drawing from memory from watching that video weeks ago but as I recall, Doug Dorrat mentioned obtaining that data from some brand of alk monitor that tested 24 times a day or something.

From what I recall and the graph it is GHL KH Director and you can set it to test 24 times a day.

It is hobby grade monitoring system vs. a lab grade equipment.

 

[LimestoneCowboy]

FM/ Claude is big on the halogens.

I suspect the explanations are based on observations and experience.

There may be benefits to having halogens available before the lights are on.
Unfortunately it is how his system works, by adding trace 3 to Kh and following Bolus you will end up with this scenario regardless if it is beneficial or not.
Perhaps FM could state from the observations dosing halogens in the morning it is not detriment…

I dont' mean to be rude or mean, but in all his videos, I have yet to see an Acropora. Is that just me?

 

[LimestoneCowboy]

Bolus. I'm hoping to see some clear evaluation of the FM claim that alk is stable during the light cycle after dosing bicarbonate.

There are a host of provably wrong chemical assertions by FM, combined with a lot of ordinary known effects of dosing.

The only one, IMO, that is both experimentally testable and out of the ordinary is this claim:

"It is common for the alkalinity to rise up high and remain high and constant for a large part of the photoperiod. This ‘Table-top’ effect where the alkalinity will plateau is a feature of the Bolus method and creates a remarkably stable alkalinity throughout the photoperiod. If you have the means of measuring this phenomenon it is evidence that the Bolus method is working as it should in your tank"

That is, IMO, the only thing in this method that seems worth testing. Not because I think it is a "feature of the bolus method" if one uses real bicarbonate, but because it is a big part of the claim and anyone can test it with sufficient time on their hands. IMO, either alk is stable regardless of bolus dosing or it is unstable. But some experiments are always better to convince people than my assertions.

From what I've seen since 6-6 @Randy Holmes-Farley, its more like a stair step down after it rockets up. I am coming from Kalk/Naoh/CaRx with this system, so it might be adjusting "repairing". Sticks look fine so far with just their additives going in now. Trying to keep all other things steady to get a good pepsi challenge here. Alkatronic testing every hour for now and pH every 10 minutes on the graph.

 

[Pod_01]

I dont' mean to be rude or mean, but in all his videos, I have yet to see an Acropora. Is that just me?

Hmmmm…. Claude is the owner of Fauna Marin and Fauna Marin is one of the coral farms located in Europe/ Germany. You can go to their site and look up the Acropora that are being sold…

Also you can look up Fauna Marin videos on YouTube, they are mostly in German…

Maybe this helps, it is intro video about Fauna Marin:



There are plenty of acroporas in FM videos.

 

[LimestoneCowboy]

Hmmmm…. Claude is the owner of Fauna Marin and Fauna Marin is one of the coral farms located in Europe/ Germany. You can go to their site and look up the Acropora that are being sold…

Also you can look up Fauna Marin videos on YouTube, they are mostly in German…

Maybe this helps, it is intro video about Fauna Marin:



There are plenty of acroporas in FM

 

[LimestoneCowboy]

Wow, how did I miss that!

 

[Hans-Werner]

Typically high Levels of bromide impurity in many Magnesium salts

Yes, we know this "problem". It depends on the origin of the magnesium salts. If I recall it right, in Dead Sea magnesium chloride this "impurity" is very high.

Thanks for your input which has clarified the likely source.

 

[Superlightman]

That I checked this weekend when dosing 1.5h after the lights went on. PH was slightly lower then, like 8.0 oppposed to 8.1 with the bolus. So this is well within the error margin (simple drip indicator test). The lighting seems to be a key component.
I also tested the pH directly after dosing and it was slightly higher. Could this already be attributed to the buffering effect of a higher alkalinity?

From everything I have seen and read I would say that the ‚magic‘ is indeed only a turbo start of lighting and therefor photosynthesis wich results in higher pH early in the day. The higher alk also contibutes to that and some traces might help as well. A higher pH is supposedly beneficial and probably the reason for all the claims that are made (obviosly growth but also the resiliency against diseases/infections).
The not so nice part is the way FM tries to explain the workings and that we are left wondering about the KH mix.

I will continue with bolus (wanted to get rid of dosing pumps) and see what happens when the daily alk demand rises and the one shot dose has to deliver 2dKh as in my previous tank.

I suspected also that the effect comes only from the light and the ALK, this is why is start to change the light and the ALK with my usual carbonate dosing ( ATI ) before do the bolus to see if it is the light or the dosing which increase the PH or both. And yes, the PH rose as expected with the light modification. Then I dosed the bolus with bicarbonate, result, the PH dropped, it was higher with the carbonate. In the bolus what app group other people don't see the expect PH jump compared to their previous method mostly people coming from ATI same me, Claude says it can take time to "repair a broken system" when people ask them how long , he avoid answered this question. So will it really change over time? I'm skeptical, but maybe I'm wrong.
But for sure for people who turn their light up at 120% in the beginning of the day, up the alk and do the one time dosing they will see an increase PH, but this effect for me comes from the light mainly and not the one time dosing.
Interesting thing in the ATI German Facebook, there is a discussion about dosing 80% of the ALK during the night to have less pH drop, and they seem to see beneficial effects.

 

[BeanAnimal]

A this point I think of Claude said that tapping on the tank three times and pouring the dose in while screaming "bekommen" increased growth by allowing specific ions to get closer together due to vibration, the Facebook group would report benefits in their testing and people would be tapping on their tanks and screaming....

Sorry to add absolutely nothing to this conversation but nonsense. I have gone down a rabbit hole and watched a bunch of these videos and read dozens of posts and left just scratching my head at how some of this stuff is taken seriously.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting thing in the ATI German Facebook, there is a discussion about dosing 80% of the ALK during the night to have less pH drop, and they seem to see beneficial effects.

Keeping up the pH at night by dosing high pH additives then has been a mainstay of reefing for decades.

If they do this in a less significant fashion by dosing a lower pH alk additive at night, there’s nothing wrong with that, it just isn’t optimal.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Keeping up the pH at night by dosing high pH additives then has been a mainstay of reefing for decades.

If they do this in a less significant fashion by dosing a lower pH alk additive at night, there’s nothing wrong with that, it just isn’t optimal.

Putting the puzzle pieces of this entire conversation together - are you seeing anything at all novel?