BTA New tank vs Matured tank

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Funston07

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I think what's going on here is that you know that it isn't recommended for a nem to be put in a newer system but you want the real data on why this won't work and the reality is that we don't really understand the science behind what exactly kills nems in unestablished tanks but we have all seen it happen over and over and over and over again.

That being said I know you have that nem on the way and I wish you luck. Keep us posted on its progress and post pics!
Thats exactly what I'm looking for. Im just determined to figure out the real root cause of it other than the general stability statement. I can't be the only person who wants to know the answer to this. Somewhere someone else has had to look into this issue more in depth.
I appreciate it though and I will definitely update in the next couple weeks on progress of it, or if I ever find the real answer to this (if there is one).
 

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I totally agree on waiting for the larger anemones - especially magnificas and ritteri - but BTAs aren't hard.

If your parameters are stable, and you get a healthy BTA, it'll be fine .
 

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ou know that it isn't recommended for a nem to be put in a newer system but you want the real data on why this won't work and the reality is that we don't really understand the science behind what exactly kills nems in unestablished tanks but we have all seen it happen over and over and over and over again.

That being said I know you have that nem on the way and I wish you luck. Keep us

Perfectly stated.
 

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Nems may move about the tank and sting corals. Even after some time. They also can multiply, now I have three and some burnt corals. Good rule of thumb is if you can grow pink algae, tank is ready for animals that need light to survive and grow.
 
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Okay so I'm interested in eventually putting a couple BTAs in my tank but want to research more on this exact subject. Many people say you need your tank to be mature (6-8months) to start adding any nems. But why exactly? I'm not necessarily asking for just opinions or past bad experiences but what exactly causes a nems to not thrive in a new tank vs an old tank? Where is there actual research of this idea? They get their nutrients from lighting, periodically feeding, and nutrients from the water column so what does a mature tank have that a new tank doesn't that is going to be beneficial to its health? Outside of your regular parameters what else could be an issue causing people to be unsuccessful with nems in new tanks? I ask this because although people suggest having a mature tank I also see people post about adding a BTA to a 1 day, 1 month, 2 month, and 3 month old tanks with good success so what are they doing differently? It's obviously possible I'm just trying to research the cause of failure with nems in new tanks.

So I see a question but not anything regarding your setup. By setup I mean lighting, substrate, bare bottom, rocks, lighting, cycle method, type of rock used (dry vs live), and much much more. It isn't a simple answer as 28 days after your cycle completed. I am not trying to be vague but rather starting a dialog to set the level of expectations.

Here is the deal. Tank cycle != coral ready.

You can cycle the tank and it can process 4 ppm ammonia in under 24 hours. It is important because we want a foundation to remove toxic ammonia and nitrite, naturally. So once this is done you can add one or two fish. Remember you went from a cycled tank that can process 4 ppm ammonia without fish. Now you introduce fish which means you have to feed. They produce waste, and now your tank has to be able to process this. It is a slow process to add fish. You do not go big bang on day one, day two, etc. You add one or two and monitor the system.

So now you have your tank. It is cycled. You added a fish or two. Now you want to add a test coral. Again, not big bang but something you want but also a test coral or two. You introduce these and watch. You are saying but no, it is cycled and I want to go big bam boom. Nope, you can't. Why? Because now you are adding fish, you are feeding fish, you introduced a coral or two to test with, lights are on, skimmer is on, and the biological filter is saying wait a minute I'm not ready. You start to get diatoms, that clears. Then you get cyno, that clears. Next GHA / green hair algae. That clears. We call this the ugly phases. Ugly phases can impact water quality and it can impact corals.

You have to manage all of this while understanding how your tank is maturing. Two videos below talking about bare bottom, rocks, and cycle from BRS. May not be applicable, may not be useful, but even with me being in the hobby since 1999 I found it enjoyable. Also notice how I didn't say anything about adding that BTA? You are correct, not yet. But soon. How soon? Depends on your tank, substrate, rock type (dry, live) and overall occupants.

I'm a little over 2 years in my 210 upgrade. I used 150 lbs of dry rock as the base. I moved over about 50 lbs of live rock from my previous tank which was about 10 years old. I lost some corals during the upgrade process because while the tank was cycled and ran for a couple months establishing the dry rock the rock was so porous and full of nooks and crannies (pukani rock) that it took over 18 months to fill in. Even now I can take a rock, turn it 180 degrees, and the back side will look like I just put it in new. Same applies to taking it out and splitting it. Back to a mini cycle stuff. Just takes a while.

TL; DR - it may take a couple months. Cycle complete doesn't equal coral and fish ready. Take it slow so after you add something the tank bacteria adapts.





 
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So I see a question but not anything regarding your setup. By setup I mean lighting, substrate, bare bottom, rocks, lighting, cycle method, type of rock used (dry vs live), and much much more. It isn't a simple answer as 28 days after your cycle completed. I am not trying to be vague but rather starting a dialog to set the level of expectations.

Here is the deal. Tank cycle != coral ready.

You can cycle the tank and it can process 4 ppm ammonia in under 24 hours. It is important because we want a foundation to remove toxic ammonia and nitrite, naturally. So once this is done you can add one or two fish. Remember you went from a cycled tank that can process 4 ppm ammonia without fish. Now you introduce fish which means you have to feed. They produce waste, and now your tank has to be able to process this. It is a slow process to add fish. You do not go big bang on day one, day two, etc. You add one or two and monitor the system.

So now you have your tank. It is cycled. You added a fish or two. Now you want to add a test coral. Again, not big bang but something you want but also a test coral or two. You introduce these and watch. You are saying but no, it is cycled and I want to go big bam boom. Nope, you can't. Why? Because now you are adding fish, you are feeding fish, you introduced a coral or two to test with, lights are on, skimmer is on, and the biological filter is saying wait a minute I'm not ready. You start to get diatoms, that clears. Then you get cyno, that clears. Next GHA / green hair algae. That clears. We call this the ugly phases. Ugly phases can impact water quality and it can impact corals.

You have to manage all of this while understanding how your tank is maturing. Two videos below talking about bare bottom, rocks, and cycle from BRS. May not be applicable, may not be useful, but even with me being in the hobby since 1999 I found it enjoyable. Also notice how I didn't say anything about adding that BTA? You are correct, not yet. But soon. How soon? Depends on your tank, substrate, rock type (dry, live) and overall occupants.

I'm a little over 2 years in my 210 upgrade. I used 150 lbs of dry rock as the base. I moved over about 50 lbs of live rock from my previous tank which was about 10 years old. I lost some corals during the upgrade process because while the tank was cycled and ran for a couple months establishing the dry rock the rock was so porous and full of nooks and crannies (pukani rock) that it took over 18 months to fill in. Even now I can take a rock, turn it 180 degrees, and the back side will look like I just put it in new. Same applies to taking it out and splitting it. Back to a mini cycle stuff. Just takes a while.

TL; DR - it may take a couple months. Cycle complete doesn't equal coral and fish ready. Take it slow so after you add something the tank bacteria adapts.






Well you don't see anything regarding my tank because I didn't ask if my tank was ready for a BTA, it was a question in general. I'm curious of what exactly "scientifically" is the cause for success or failure with nems in new or mature tanks other than just stability. But since your asking I started with dry rock, live sand, and bottle bacteria. Tank cycled within 4 days, added first fish that weekend and everything went good for 2-3weeks. Then added a pair of Davinci clowns that have been in the tank for the past month no problems. Have a few coral which have been doing well also such as a torch, blastos, zoanthids, acans, and a leptastria. Have 2 AI prime 16 hd lights over a 65gal tank. Average Par is about 140 with a high of 203 and a low of 98 I believe somewhere in that range. Few CUC keeping things clean as well. Been keeping my alk at 8dKh, cal 425, mag 1300, no3 5ppm, po4 .2 honestly the po4 is hard to read it but its definitely .1-.2 need to get a better test thats easier to read for po4 gonna probably go with a hannah for that. I test twice a week and feed once a day at the same times. Probably leaving a few things out if I am go ahead and ask.
 

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I'll have to ask about that. How fast did yours perish? Was it in a new tank or "matured" tank?
Tank was probably around 8 months old. I’d avoid wild nems regardless of tank age. My success rate with them was not good. All my wilds probably died out around 4 months.
 
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Well you don't see anything regarding my tank because I didn't ask if my tank was ready for a BTA, it was a question in general. I'm curious of what exactly "scientifically" is the cause for success or failure with nems in new or mature tanks other than just stability. But since your asking I started with dry rock, live sand, and bottle bacteria. Tank cycled within 4 days, added first fish that weekend and everything went good for 2-3weeks. Then added a pair of Davinci clowns that have been in the tank for the past month no problems. Have a few coral which have been doing well also such as a torch, blastos, zoanthids, acans, and a leptastria. Have 2 AI prime 16 hd lights over a 65gal tank. Average Par is about 140 with a high of 203 and a low of 98 I believe somewhere in that range. Few CUC keeping things clean as well. Been keeping my alk at 8dKh, cal 425, mag 1300, no3 5ppm, po4 .2 honestly the po4 is hard to read it but its definitely .1-.2 need to get a better test thats easier to read for po4 gonna probably go with a hannah for that. I test twice a week and feed once a day at the same times. Probably leaving a few things out if I am go ahead and ask.

My reply was also in general. There really isn't any science behind it other than the post cycle cadence and it is directly related to how the hobbyist system is setup. This is just my opinion. I'm not a marine biologist and only speak from the tanks I've set up. Things like the type of live rock, substrate, bare bottom and others all play a factor due to the amount of time it will take for the biological filter and bacteria take hold. Which is why I mentioned processing 4 ppm of ammonia in under 24 hours without fish, with a starter fish, then coral, etc.

In any case it sounds like you have a process and following it. I do not recommend test kits but your choice of Hanna is a great one. I like it for phosphates and alk - two of the quickest and repeatable test kits there are and well worth the investment.

BTW I have 8 RBTA's right now. They can be a bit of a pain unless one is setting up a species tank. I mean from a mixed or SPS focused tank they can get in the way and limit coral placement. We started with 1, peaked at 14, and now holding steady at 8 after giving a few away and losing 2 in the upgrade process (not sure why but think it may have been damaged by me placing rocks or possibly the dry rock and not waiting long enough to merge tanks).

In any case best of luck.
 

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I agree that if you have everything in check you’ll be ok. Knowledge is everything! Knowing what to do when something goes sideways is key and it does happen. Having said that, you are at the right place. A lot of great experienced people ready to help if needed. I’ve learned from mistakes and a lot probably could of been prevented had I known about R2R. Post a pic when you get yours. I do love nems and have quite a few in 2 tanks. He is a pic of 2 stretched out about 8” each.

69F0362D-9E06-42B8-95C2-F90A7EC2931D.jpeg
 

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Personally I wouldn't call a tank mature at 6-8 months, but I also wouldn't wait that long to add a BTA. An anemone is usually the first non fish livestock I add to the tank. That being said that is usually in month 2-3 of a new tank build. I recently added an RBTA to my new tank, and it hasn't been doing so well, and I waited a month and a half (granted I have a pair of lightnings that like to sleep in it, so that could be why its doing poorly), so I would say 2-3 months is the minimum
 
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I agree that if you have everything in check you’ll be ok. Knowledge is everything! Knowing what to do when something goes sideways is key and it does happen. Having said that, you are at the right place. A lot of great experienced people ready to help if needed. I’ve learned from mistakes and a lot probably could of been prevented had I known about R2R. Post a pic when you get yours. I do love nems and have quite a few in 2 tanks. He is a pic of 2 stretched out about 8” each.

69F0362D-9E06-42B8-95C2-F90A7EC2931D.jpeg
This is probably 20min after he was placed into the tank. He has only moved maybe half an inch from where I originally placed him over a day ago. He looked like a ball of mush when I got him but within 5min of being in the DT he anchored down and already had his tips inflated, seems healthy. He is just a little guy for now, maybe 2" wide when spread out. I'll have to get some more pictures of him under whiter lights once he is fully settled cause his color is crazy looking when not under the blues.

20200806_133615.jpg
 
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My reply was also in general. There really isn't any science behind it other than the post cycle cadence and it is directly related to how the hobbyist system is setup. This is just my opinion. I'm not a marine biologist and only speak from the tanks I've set up. Things like the type of live rock, substrate, bare bottom and others all play a factor due to the amount of time it will take for the biological filter and bacteria take hold. Which is why I mentioned processing 4 ppm of ammonia in under 24 hours without fish, with a starter fish, then coral, etc.

In any case it sounds like you have a process and following it. I do not recommend test kits but your choice of Hanna is a great one. I like it for phosphates and alk - two of the quickest and repeatable test kits there are and well worth the investment.

BTW I have 8 RBTA's right now. They can be a bit of a pain unless one is setting up a species tank. I mean from a mixed or SPS focused tank they can get in the way and limit coral placement. We started with 1, peaked at 14, and now holding steady at 8 after giving a few away and losing 2 in the upgrade process (not sure why but think it may have been damaged by me placing rocks or possibly the dry rock and not waiting long enough to merge tanks).

In any case best of luck.
I couldn't imagine having 14 of them unless like you said and had a species tank for them. 1 is enough for me 2 at the max at least in this tank. Maybe once I set up the 200+ gallon tank in my basement I wouldnt mind having a few of them though, they are interesting creatures.
 

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Water stability is the key IMO - bought one BTA a year ago and I now have 12 BTA's in 3 different tanks all from the one that just kept splitting:) Used to special feed them once per week but really seems like they are just fine taking from the water column from fish feeding.
 

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I appreciate any and all the input people have on this subject. I didnt really elaborate or know if you read through the entire post but yeah its not just bacteria but the entire variety of bacteria and micro fauna like you said. That entire statement though relates to the stability of the tank itself and how efficient it can handle nutrients/bioloads. The nem doesnt directly use anything from the different bacteria or microfauna to benefit itself right? Thats why I asked the question about the whole new tank vs old tank to see if there was something I was missing when researching. I cant find anything anywhere that relates to anything other than just the stability. Specifically the ph, salinity, temp, and lighting.
I think here is some of the confustion people are missing bc you keep asking the same question over and over. No...the nem doesn’t USE anything from the bacteria for itself, but the bacteria makes the environment safe for the nem. Imagine the difference between you living in clean air vs air that swings back and forth between clean and dangerously polluted. Nems can’t handle that swing...nor the pollution. So it needs an environment that has a large amount of beneficial bacteria that keeps the environment stable..free of “pollution” or “pollution” swings.
 
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I think here is some of the confustion people are missing bc you keep asking the same question over and over. No...the nem doesn’t USE anything from the bacteria for itself, but the bacteria makes the environment safe for the nem. Imagine the difference between you living in clean air vs air that swings back and forth between clean and dangerously polluted. Nems can’t handle that swing...nor the pollution. So it needs an environment that has a large amount of beneficial bacteria that keeps the environment stable..free of “pollution” or “pollution” swings.
I keep asking it cause everyone keeps going back to the stability issue. My point is if you can actively intervene and provide the same conditions that the tank does on its own when its mature then there's no reason you cant put a nem in a new tank. As long as you research enough and are able to provide these ideal conditions you dont NEED a mature tank it just makes it easier on someone who either doesnt have enough knowledge on it or someone who doesnt keep up on their tank as much such as testing. Alot of people bring up the bacteria but that's not the root cause of failure for a nem in a new tank, its the stability. Initially I just asked because I've been researching on them like alot and from what most people saying you NEED a mature tank was making me feel like I was missing something but im not as it seems. Its just this subject is a never ending circle lol.
 

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I keep asking it cause everyone keeps going back to the stability issue. My point is if you can actively intervene and provide the same conditions that the tank does on its own when its mature then there's no reason you cant put a nem in a new tank. As long as you research enough and are able to provide these ideal conditions you dont NEED a mature tank it just makes it easier on someone who either doesnt have enough knowledge on it or someone who doesnt keep up on their tank as much such as testing. Alot of people bring up the bacteria but that's not the root cause of failure for a nem in a new tank, its the stability. Initially I just asked because I've been researching on them like alot and from what most people saying you NEED a mature tank was making me feel like I was missing something but im not as it seems. Its just this subject is a never ending circle lol.
I believe your incorrect in your thinking here, I've seen many people with newish tanks claiming to have perfect parameters but their nems are still withering away. What in your opinion are they doing wrong that your doing right?
And I don't mean to be rude but lets be real here, the point of this thread was that you have a bta being shipped to you and wanted to know if it'll survive in your tank.

Anyways once again I wish you luck and that nem looks amazing!
 

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Glitter bombs are wicked little strains of BTA, buddy of mine had a tank full of em. I have always loved the look of nem driven tanks with a couple clowns running amongst the tentacles.


That being said after reading the thread, I agree that the main thing people are missing is STABILITY. Thats with all corals though too. If you plan to have a reef stability is your best friend. You got the right idea doing all your research and seeking the answers.

My baby black widow really enjoys TDO mini pellets, also the maroon feeds the nem the flakes that are too big.. Probably the coolest thing to watch her drag a monster flake piece to the nem then spit it out to it. She feeds it. The nem protects her.

I wish you luck keep us updated!
 

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