Bumps on Powder Blue Tang (not Ich)

[NeuroticAquatics]

I have had this PBT in QT (copper) for six weeks plus two more observing. It always looked totally healthy and never showed signs of anything. I finally added it to my 240g last weekend and it looked good for a few days. On Wednesday, it started to get bumps that look like they are coming from inside. Yesterday it had some white on it’s fins, and one kinda big spot on it’s body (larger than what Ich typically looks like). All the other fish look fine. The Flame Hawk that went through QT looks fine. What’s going on?

 

[NeuroticAquatics]

I forgot to mention that the nicks on the fins were from my Carribean Blue Tang chasing him around when he was added. That Tang has since been removed and re-homed.

 

[MnFish1]

To me it looks like CI - but with one picture its hard to tell - A couple possibilities

1. Was your copper dose always above the recommended level with an accurate checker for 6 weeks
2. Is there any possibility that CI (or velvet) could be colonized in your larger tank (i.e. were all the fish QT'd before entry - was there ever CI in that tank
3. Its honestly hard to tell from the pictures - could the prolonged copper treatment have decreased immune function such that another infection (brookynella, etc) could have occurred?
4. Again its hard to tell - could it be velvet.

In any case #reefsquad - and what are you planning to do with the fish seems like it needs treatment. BTW if that is 'velvet' there have been strains reported that require Chloroquine to treat effectively (copper resistant)

 

[Keepswiming]

To me that looks like Cryptocaryon (ICH). It was most likely in your display, but all the other fish have Strong enough immune systems to live with it. I am sure you already know this but PB tangs are terrible at handling ich, especially when stressed (getting bullied).

You can treat him again before he possibly stops eating and wastes, or you can try the medicated food and high nutrient approach. I would personally retreat. Just remember that it will come right back if he goes in the display without going fallow or hypo to kill off the ICH waiting for an immunocompromised host.

 

[4FordFamily]

The fish has ich at a minimum. I've not had powder blues handle "managing ich" long term but for extremely rare exceptions.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

The picture is blurry, some of what you describe sounds like lympho also, but the spots on the side of the fish are not lympho. The internal bumps I often see with copper sensitivity and is a "skin reaction" to copper in rare occasions, particularly tangs. Since this is post-treatment I am nearly certain this is not the issue.

Has every fish in that system been through a proper copper treatment? If not, they've just managed it and pass it on to new fish which aren't as strong or able to fight it off, necessarily.

 

[NeuroticAquatics]

The display was just treated for Ich as well (copper too). I had the PBT and Hawk in a separate setup and the DT had a fish with what looked like Ich. I decided that there were too many fish to pull into QT (because my PBT and Hawk were already in that). I decided to just do the 240g with copper and watch the levels closely. I figured that after both tanks finished treatment, I would add the PBT and if he stayed clean, then both were successful. All fish in the display went through treatment and seemed clean as well. I can’t be 100% sure copper was therapeutic at all times, but I checked frequently (almost daily) and never felt it looked under therapeutic.

The bumps all over the body look like there is something under the skin pushing it outwards. No “velvet coating” signs.

I will see if I can get better pics later...

 

[MnFish1]

To me that looks like Cryptocaryon (ICH). It was most likely in your display, but all the other fish have Strong enough immune systems to live with it. I am sure you already know this but PB tangs are terrible at handling ich, especially when stressed (getting bullied).

You can treat him again before he possibly stops eating and wastes, or you can try the medicated food and high nutrient approach. I would personally retreat. Just remember that it will come right back if he goes in the display without going fallow or hypo to kill off the ICH waiting for an immunocompromised host.

Generally I agree - though - there is a chance - if he survives this outbreak - he will be at least partially if not fully immune to the strain in the tank - so it may not be 'that bad'. If he were to go fallow - he would also have to remove and treat all of his fish in addition to the fallow period.

 

[NeuroticAquatics]

This was him on Monday. The spots you see are on the glass, not the fish.

 

[4FordFamily]

Unfortunately using copper in display tanks leads to large swings in levels. It also sounds like you’re using a visual copper test kit, this may be the biggest issue but I imagine both played a role.

Which test kit did you use?

I’d recommend a Hanna copper checker, even after using visual tests for years I threw them away as Hanna showed me just how inaccurate they truly are.

 

[Land Shark]

I’m not a fan of copper in a display tank. Copper is a form of poison and keeping the concentration right gets tricky, especially if there is live rock and sand.

I am a huge fan of using CP in a display tank though. The pic is my tank, which was treated with CP about 20 months ago. The powder blue was treated for ich this way and it worked like a charm. Know that this tank was fish only/coral free at the time. It’s worth looking into.

 

[NeuroticAquatics]

I used Cupramine and a Salifert test kit.

I was not a fan of using copper in my DT, but I had too many fish to pull. It had no corals and I figured I could watch for swings.

If this all goes bad, I may try CP, but having that with possibly some copper (leaching back out from rocks/sand) worries me.

If I decide to continue with this tank, I will get a Hanna checker. I’m honestly almost ready to call it quits though...

 

[Keepswiming]

Generally I agree - though - there is a chance - if he survives this outbreak - he will be at least partially if not fully immune to the strain in the tank - so it may not be 'that bad'. If he were to go fallow - he would also have to remove and treat all of his fish in addition to the fallow period.

You are correct about the Fallow procedure.

The possibility of partial immunity will most likely be irrelevant if PB is treated and put back in with the Carribean Blue Tang picking on him...

 

[Keepswiming]

Are any of your other fish Darting across the tank, Sitting in front of powerheads, twitching their head, flashing on the sand/rock/overflow?

 

[MnFish1]

You are correct about the Fallow procedure.

The possibility of partial immunity will most likely be irrelevant if PB is treated and put back in with the Carribean Blue Tang picking on him...

Maybe - don't know why it would be irrelavent- except for the copper treatment which may have prevented immunity from happening.

 

[Keepswiming]

Maybe - don't know why it would be irrelavent- except for the copper treatment which may have prevented immunity from happening.

If it is ICH, it is safe to assume it is now in the display. If he were to take the PB out, treat him, and put him back in without treating the others/tank, the stress from the bullying will likely cause him to break out again regardless of immunity. That is a good size lesion on his Dorsal fin, which makes me believe this is not a case of establishing a pecking order.

This would only matter if he didnt treat all and the tank.

 

[NeuroticAquatics]

The Carribean Blue was sold. I gave it about an hour of violent chasing/pecking and decided it just was not going to accept the PBT. That is where the fun nicks came from. I pulled the Caribbean at that point. The PBT is now in the DT, since Sunday, with a few other fish that have shown no aggression at all.

 

[Keepswiming]

The Carribean Blue was sold. I gave it about an hour of violent chasing/pecking and decided it just was not going to accept the PBT. That is where the fun nicks came from. I pulled the Caribbean at that point. The PBT is now in the DT, since Sunday, with a few other fish that have shown no aggression at all.

That's good. In this case why don't you just treat the entire display with the PB in it since you already treated the tank with meds?

Do you have corals and inverts in there?

 

[NeuroticAquatics]

Would those big bumps be from Ich? I’ve never seen Ich do that. It’s usually grains of salt size “pimples”. These look like welts and this fish was flawless up until mid-week.

 

[Keepswiming]

Would those big bumps be from Ich? I’ve never seen Ich do that. It’s usually grains of salt size “pimples”. These look like welts and this fish was flawless up until mid-week.

I have personally seen this with Ich multiple times with PBs. Possible inflammation from ich or trauma...?

Many treatments cover multiple organisms so I might not be necessary to differentiate, depending on the treatment plan.

 

[NeuroticAquatics]

It has never had Ich since I’ve had it. I got it from a wholesale place in LA, had it untreated in QT for a couple weeks...no signs of anything. Treated with copper (I’ve been treating everything)...no signs of anything. Watched it for a couple weeks after...nothing. Put it into my DT, had about an hour of stress with the Carribean Tang on Sunday, but still looked good other than the two fin nips. Looked okay Mon and Tues then these bumps started Wed.