Carbon Dosing Questions

[rishma]

Friend, what am I missing here? I'm genuinely asking

How could the phosphate be so low that I need more in the tank, yet I'm seeing a visible bacteria bloom, which to me suggests that the bacteria are growing and growing well? To me, this seems much more like I need a better skimmer, and without a better skimmer carbon dosing isn't a good fit for this tank.

What would happen if I did add more phosphate (which I'm currently trying to do by adding Reef Roids (all I have on hand))? Wouldn't the bacteria grow even faster, causing cloudier water, and while that growth might use up much of my nitrates and some of my very limited phosphates, it's basically meaningless if I don't have a skimmer capable of pulling the bacteria out?

Again, if I'm completely misunderstanding this carbon dosing process, by all means someone please let me know what I'm missing

Thank you very much again for your help, I really do appreciate it, I'm just kind of slow sometimes

You are doing fine I think. I don’t understand the processes well enough to answer your question. I just know from experience that I’ve been negligent carbon dosing, drove phosphate to zero (had plenty of nitrate), and then was in a world of hurt with upset corals and slimes and dinoflagellates. I’m hoping to help you avoid that experience.

As for the effectiveness of your skimmer, my opinion is…if it’s making foam and you are collecting skimmate, it’s working well enough for carbon dosing.

As for the cloudiness, I understand wanting to resolve that before dosing phosphate. I’m a little surprised you had a bloom based on your dose. Activated carbon might help. That is what I’d try.

Reef roids is pretty effective at increasing phospate. I’ve used it for that purpose in the past. It does add some nitrate too, but we work with what we’ve got.

 

[Fish Fan]

You are doing fine I think. I don’t understand the processes well enough to answer your question. I just know from experience that I’ve been negligent carbon dosing, drove phosphate to zero (had plenty of nitrate), and then was in a world of hurt with upset corals and slimes and dinoflagellates. I’m hoping to help you avoid that experience.

As for the effectiveness of your skimmer, my opinion is…if it’s making foam and you are collecting skimmate, it’s working well enough for carbon dosing.

As for the cloudiness, I understand wanting to resolve that before dosing phosphate. I’m a little surprised you had a bloom based on your dose. Activated carbon might help. That is what I’d try.

Reef roids is pretty effective at increasing phospate. I’ve used it for that purpose in the past. It does add some nitrate too, but we work with what we’ve got.

I appreciate your reply once again, and I appreciate your vote of confidence, as well as your concern.

I do not want to completely bottom out my phosphates, though they are basically there now.

I should have mentioned: I'm getting skimmate, it's looking a little wet to me, but it's dirty water with thicker sludge I wash off the collection cup every 2 or 3 days. So it's getting something. It may also be that the skimmer was brand spanking new about two weeks ago, and I'm not sure I've set the height of the cup at its most efficient level yet. It could be that some break in and tweaking of the skimmer may be necessary.

I'm not exactly freaking out about how cloudy my tank is, I have no fish in this tank, and I'm not posing it for any magazine covers tomorrow I just want to make sure I'm doing this carbon dosing correctly. This is my first time seriously trying carbon dosing; years ago I made a half-baked attempt.

Yes, I've been adding Reef Roids over the last three days. I'm going to test tomorrow, and if I see phosphates starting to accumulate I believe I'd be on the right track. I may also do a water change if the water looks cloudy.

For tonight, I've about had it

Thanks again @rishma!!

 

[rishma]

When trying to raise phosphate you will find that little to none will accumulate in the water until the rock and sand have bound a lot of it. For example, if you dose enough for 0.1ppm today, tomorrow it might be back close to zero. It’s not bacteria consuming it but it’s being bound up by rock and sand. Rock and sand can bind and astonishing amount before you start to establish phospate levels in the water.

Good luck

 

[Fish Fan]

When trying to raise phosphate you will find that little to none will accumulate in the water until the rock and sand have bound a lot of it. For example, if you dose enough for 0.1ppm today, tomorrow it might be back close to zero. It’s not bacteria consuming it but it’s being bound up by rock and sand. Rock and sand can bind and astonishing amount before you start to establish phospate levels in the water.

Good luck

This is a fantastic point, I didn't see it this way until you said it here

This tank was started with about 50% totally new, dry base rock that I thought would l"each" phosphate, as has been my experience in the past using dry rock. I also used about 50% of the same base rock, but that rock had been in another tank for about 18 months at least (an un-lit invert tank).

I tend to think of new dry rocks as "leaching" phosphate, and I know that something like wildly growing hair algae may be using up the phosphate faster than it can be tested for.

I am still questioning why I'm getting a visible bacterial bloom, but perhaps the answer to my very low phosphates is that despite adding Reef Roids, my rocks are actually binding it up. Maybe that's what's going on?

Thanks again!

 

[Fish Fan]

Does anyone think that my pineapple sponge mass die off had anything to do with what I'm seeing here?

Off the top of my head here, I would think an organism like a pineapple sponge is basically all protein, thus the nitrates. They are not photosynthetic, so I believe they would do well in a low phosphate environment.... Does anyone follow this thought process, or am I just way overthinking things here? Dead pineapple sponges = high nitrates, but low phosphate??

 

[rishma]

You are supposed to be sleeping now. I assure you I’m in a completely different time zone at the moment

While I’ve seen dry rock come in with phospate and leach it, I think it’s actually more common to see new tanks binding struggle to keep it elevated.

By the way, I forget how new the tank is. A little nitrite gives a high false reading of nitrate. More things for you to ponder.

I am baffled by the bloom. I’d use some activated carbon to see if it helps.

 

[Fish Fan]

You are supposed to be sleeping now. I assure you I’m in a completely different time zone at the moment

While I’ve seen dry rock come in with phospate and leach it, I think it’s actually more common to see new tanks binding struggle to keep it elevated.

By the way, I forget how new the tank is. A little nitrite gives a high false reading of nitrate. More things for you to ponder.

I am baffled by the bloom. I’d use some activated carbon to see if it helps.

I've never experienced this either, which is why I am not ruling out testing error, though I'm using mostly Hanna Checkers with fresh reagents.

This is not a new tank where nitrite would interfere with nitrate. This tank was started around the beginning of March using over 50% very well cycled rock. I should mention, this is a bare bottom.

This was not the expected outcome, but I'm learning, and likely doing something wrong

My wife will kill me if I don't get off this machine soon, but thank you again for your help, I'll check back in tomorrow!

 

[jsker]

Lol! Thank cracked me up!

Do you think if I took your numbers at 82 gallons and by ratio dosed the same for my 25 gallon (probably closer to 20 gallon water volume) I'd be in good shape?

Again, I must have read something wrong about the ramp-up phase. Maybe I should have started much lower.

I agree with RHF in that reply tho nitrates are caused by waste, and I have no explanation in this tank, except that some of the rocks had been in another aquarium, and may have built up some organics. The new, dry rock may have also had some organics (though nearly no phosphates??). Or the TBS rocks honestly did have some life to them.

A very dimly lit light bulb just went off for me, maybe - during the initial dark period where again I had some TBS rock and rocks that were well seasoned by TBS rock, this tank grew pineapple sponges everywhere. I mean, they were all over the rocks in the display section, and I assume they were and still are in the dark filter section with the TBS rock rubble pieces. Could the die off of these sponges be causing what I'm seeing here? This just popped into my head, am I on to something here?

I would suggest to cut the dosing by 2/3rds, .010 ml. that is going to have to be done with a syringe. Are you planing to use a doser once you work your way up in weeks?

I had this whole issue that I was trying to figure out for almost 2 years. The short version is that the county was spraying for mosquitoes at night, my skimmer had an outside line and I was sucking in pesticide. That pretty much killed off my reef. After if figured what the cause was, my nitrates were very high. That is when I started dosing carbon/vodka to bring down the nitrates and clean/polish the water. Back in the day, we used to use the black carbon to do the same. One had to change the carbon out pretty often to see results and that got expensive.

The sponges are great filters. I do not think that would raise your nitrates, but bring them down. I have a feeling you are on to something with the old rock and the TBS rock.

As you bring down your nitrates you will most likely get cyano and diatom. I suggest to just ride it out until you get your parameters settled in. I used dose all kinds of products that stripped the tank. I would either dose vodka or vinegar but not both mixed.

 

[Fish Fan]

I would suggest to cut the dosing by 2/3rds, .010 ml. that is going to have to be done with a syringe. Are you planing to use a doser once you work your way up in weeks?

I started at about 3mL, which I'm realizing now may have just been too much. Are you really suggesting 0.010mL, or 0.10mL?

I am in the process of setting up my dosing pump here, so I can dispense nearly any volume. I could also do it by hand with a pipette if needed.

II had this whole issue that I was trying to figure out for almost 2 years. The short version is that the county was spraying for mosquitoes at night, my skimmer had an outside line and I was sucking in pesticide. That pretty much killed off my reef. After if figured what the cause was, my nitrates were very high. That is when I started dosing carbon/vodka to bring down the nitrates and clean/polish the water. Back in the day, we used to use the black carbon to do the same. One had to change the carbon out pretty often to see results and that got expensive.

Yikes! I'm sorry to hear that! I don't even know how you figured that out, but I'm glad you did!

The sponges are great filters. I do not think that would raise your nitrates, but bring them down. I have a feeling you are on to something with the old rock and the TBS rock.

Let me try to be clear here, because I suspect this may matter (though maybe not lol!). I set this tank up and let it run with no lights for almost 3 months. In that time, I had an explosion of pineapple sponges growing everywhere, including the display area. Once I turned on the lights, the sponges in the display area started to die back. I am wondering if they are the cause of my high nitrate but low phosphate. I would think they are nothing but a little blob of protein. They are not photosynthetic, so I don't think they use much phosphate or would cause high phosphate (which I'm not seeing). Could the die off of the sponges be causing what I'm seeing here (high nitrate, but low phosphate)?

If not the sponges, it's got to be organics in the dry rocks and/or organics on the TBS live rock I used here. Again, I've been feeding next to nothing, until recently when I've been adding Reef Roids to hopefully bring up the phosphate (I will try to do a test later today).

As you bring down your nitrates you will most likely get cyano and diatom. I suggest to just ride it out until you get your parameters settled in. I used dose all kinds of products that stripped the tank. I would either dose vodka or vinegar but not both mixed.

I'll take it lol! I can deal with some short term uglies, but I'd really like to see the nitrates come way down and the phosphate go up a bit for sure. I do believe this tank ran its course for diatoms already.

Again, hopefully new water tests coming today

Thank you again for trying to help me figure this out, I really appreciate it!

 

[Fish Fan]

OK, guys, here's where I am today:

Nitrates: 62.9 ppm
Phosphorus: 54 ppb

The tank's water is still looking cloudy/hazy, but it has cleared up a little from yesterday:

And sorry in advance for posting this, but here's my skimmer cup. It looks a bit wet to me, but it is indeed getting something. This is about two or three days worth of skimmate:

What would you guys suggest I do here? Let it ride a little longer, do a large water change, add more carbon (I've not added any since Tuesday)??

Thanks in advance for the help, I really appreciate it!!

 

[rishma]

Phosphates look good. Keep monitoring.

The skimmer is good. Small skimmers always skim wet in my experience. I wouldn’t change a thing. If it’s a dc pump you slow it down a little to get a drier foam.

Tank is less cloudy than I imagined. Have you tried activated carbon? Wiping the glass? I’m not that concerned.

If it were my tank, I would get at least a few days of tests in a row to verify things are stable (I bet phosphate moves) and water is clear. I don’t have a strong opinion on starting dose other than starting with less since you had a bloom.

 

[Fish Fan]

Phosphates look good. Keep monitoring.

The skimmer is good. Small skimmers always skim wet in my experience. I wouldn’t change a thing. If it’s a dc pump you slow it down a little to get a drier foam.

Tank is less cloudy than I imagined. Have you tried activated carbon? Wiping the glass? I’m not that concerned.

If it were my tank, I would get at least a few days of tests in a row to verify things are stable (I bet phosphate moves) and water is clear. I don’t have a strong opinion on starting dose other than starting with less since you had a bloom.

Good to hear, thank you for your reply!

The skimmer is DC, but not controllable, all I can do is move the cup up and down.

The tank is noticeably less cloudy today, it was worse yesterday, so I do think it's on the right track. I do have some BRS Rox carbon in the media basket. I don't thin it's the glass. I'm somewhat concerned

Agreed I dosed too much, when I start again I'll back it way down. I'm going to continue testing regularly until I get this sorted out.

My nitrates are still quite high, would you just give the carbon dosing more time to work?

Thank again, I appreciate your help!

 

[Uncle99]

Hey guys!

I've got an IM 25 gallon AIO that's relatively new, no fish at all, lightly stocked with just a handful of small frags, and for the first time ever I'm in a situation where this tank is running really, really high nitrates (75 ppm+) and very low phosphates (3 ppB phosphorus) on my Hanna Checkers. With water changes I've got the nitrates down to about 50 ppm, but they have been really high for the entire short life of this tank (started in March).

Admittedly, I'm at a loss for what's going on, I've never had sky high nitrates yet basically no phosphates. I had been feeding this tank practically nothing as I have no fish, only recently have I been giving the CUC a pinch of supplemental food here and there, and for the last few days I've been adding Reef Roids in an effort to get the phosphates up. This tank was started with about 50% totally new, dry base rock, and 50% well-cycled base rock (with some TBS live rock rubble in the filter section), and I would have thought if anything there would be high phosphates coming off the new dry rock.

Given my situation, I thought this tank would be a good candidate for carbon dosing (high nitrate, but low phosphate). About two weeks ago I installed an IM NuvoSkim protein skimmer in anticipation of carbon dosing. On Monday (day 1), I added about 3mL of a 75%/25% solution of white vinegar and 80 proof vodka. Almost immediately, the water turned cloudy and I thought, alright, that's the bacterial boom. On Tuesday (day 2) the water was still very cloudy, but I added another ~3ml of the carbon solution. On Wednesday (day 3) the water was still very cloudy, so I did not add any more carbon. Today, Thursday (day 4) the water was still could, I'd say there's been no change since day one, so I didn't not add any carbon today either.

I guess my questions are first, am I doing something wrong? Am I adding too much carbon (about 3mL/day in a 25 gallon tank)? Second, how long should it take for the water to clear up and was I wise or impatient by not dosing carbon over the last couple days? Last, is it possible that my humble IM NuvoSkim skimmer is just not up to the task of removing the bacteria in this situation?

As always, any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you in advance!

It took me about 4 months of daily carbon dosing to get nitrates from 50 to 10ppm and then 2 more months to get to 5ppm.

Then, another few months to slow down the dose slowly, but remains under 10.

I never got any cloudiness at all but used nopox at 3 ml per day, during lights on while PH was at its high. Cloudiness makes me think, to much, too fast.

Does work but a lot slower than I anticipated.

 

[rishma]

Phosphates look good. Keep monitoring.

The skimmer is good. Small skimmers always skim wet in my experience. I wouldn’t change a thing. If it’s a dc pump you slow it down a little to get a drier foam.

Tank is less cloudy than I imagined. Have you tried activated carbon? Wiping the glass? I’m not that concerned.

If it were my tank, I would get at least a few days of tests in a row to verify things are stable (I bet phosphate moves) and water is clear. I don’t have a strong opinion on starting dose other than starting with less since you had a bloom.

Good to hear, thank you for your reply!

The skimmer is DC, but not controllable, all I can do is move the cup up and down.

The tank is noticeably less cloudy today, it was worse yesterday, so I do think it's on the right track. I do have some BRS Rox carbon in the media basket. I don't thin it's the glass. I'm somewhat concerned

Agreed I dosed too much, when I start again I'll back it way down. I'm going to continue testing regularly until I get this sorted out.

My nitrates are still quite high, would you just give the carbon dosing more time to work?

Thank again, I appreciate your help!

Carbon dosing can take quite a while to start working but it will work. Have you read the Miami’s thread with the vinegar and vodka dosing charts? It’s a good read if you haven’t. Some people dose for weeks and weeks with increasing doses until they start to see nitrate go down. Slow and steady

While the nitrates are high, it’s not a major issue and you’ll be able to correct it. See if your phosphates stay stable over a few days. If that all looks good, some water changes might be wise given you suspect die off could be the cause. There are other benefits like removing DOC. I’d let the things settle before starting carbon doing again.

Since you see the water clearing that’s a good sign. And phosphates are not bottomed out, though it would be interesting to see if they drop again. J

I think you are in a good path.
.

 

[Fish Fan]

It took me about 4 months of daily carbon dosing to get nitrates from 50 to 10ppm and then 2 more months to get to 5ppm.

Then, another few months to slow down the dose slowly, but remains under 10.

I never got any cloudiness at all but used nopox at 3 ml per day, during lights on while PH was at its high. Cloudiness makes me think, to much, too fast.

Does work but a lot slower than I anticipated.

Thank you! That's a lot longer than I would have thought too. I agree I added too much, so I'm going to back that down.

Thanks again for your help!

 

[Fish Fan]

Carbon dosing can take quite a while to start working but it will work. Have you read the Miami’s thread with the vinegar and vodka dosing charts? It’s a good read if you haven’t. Some people dose for weeks and weeks with increasing doses until they start to see nitrate go down. Slow and steady

While the nitrates are high, it’s not a major issue and you’ll be able to correct it. See if your phosphates stay stable over a few days. If that all looks good, some water changes might be wise given you suspect die off could be the cause. There are other benefits like removing DOC. I’d let the things settle before starting carbon doing again.

Since you see the water clearing that’s a good sign. And phosphates are not bottomed out, though it would be interesting to see if they drop again. J

I think you are in a good path.
.

Awesome, thank you! I appreciate it as I'm basically new to carbon dosing. I do know that it can help feed corals too, that's another reason I wanted to try this here.

I'm going to continue testing and likely a water change in the next day or so, and hopefully in time the nitrate goes down and the phosphate stabilizes.

Thanks again!!

 

[Rixar]

If you add phosphate in a controlled manner, your nitrates will gradually decrease on their own.

 

[schooncw]

Read this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacterial-driven-system-a-recipe-for-success.918102/