Chasing NSW parameters, is it worth it

[Doctorgori]

We have all seen the ubiquitous so called “reef parameters” so I’m not asking for a rehash…. What I’m asking is what numbers are critical and/or fatal and why? Who or what says so? I’ve only heard repeat parroting of the same numbers over and over by “influencers” or some cited reference to a marine biologist study…..I’d like to hear from actual accredited marine biologist that are also aquarist? (and/or anyone really) What say you?

-where and when did the 79F come from and is temperature stability even that important? and if so for what? growth? I know that supposedly it’s the avg Reef temp, but what is the actual cold/heat range and why didn’t the “influencers” pick the actual middle range? say 76F for example
- if the Sun is 5000K why use 10K or 20k? if the logic is duplication of natural params doesn’t red light penetrate to aquarium depths anyway? I realize we can’t realistically overdrive white bulbs without wasting juice in lieu of zoozanthelle loving blue wavelengths, or can we? Our tanks are not 20ft deep or has it been proven ALL red wavelengths are totally useless to the coral itself at any depth?
And then there is Alkalinity, Calcium and Mg ….
I was inspired by this
Thread
..if our logic with light and temperature is to play it “safe” or optimize biological resources seem many reefers are running lower alkalinity (7dkh or lower) …. perhaps disproving the need for high alkalinity and the related chemistry

-I haven’t found any consensus data on how wide the actual tolerances are for Alkalinity against NSW, just testimonials correlating tip burn to high alk and low nutrients. Not doubting it, but like “UAP’s” all we have is testimonials from credible witnesses and no hard evidence (numbers vs numbers) …

It’s just that I’m not sure the sample size is large enough or well organized enough for any firm conclusions….
OTOH….
That said we also have an assortment of “influencers” proposing params higher than NSW as safe (8.0 >) and perhaps without its own set of unique problems. So what is the dKH fatality tolerance or range of coral, and what factors allow survivability outside of NSW params? …. I think this POST raises that as a legit question

I wish This thread materialized a lil better and got more post

Thread 'Lets Build a Tank Parameter/Chemistry Database to Better Understand What Works'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/l...abase-to-better-understand-what-works.365737/
I did find this thread

Thread 'Quick survey about coral growth and alkalinity consumption'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/quick-survey-about-coral-growth-and-alkalinity-consumption.796536/

and this survey
Thread 'Successful Light, Alk and Nutrient Ratios'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/successful-light-alk-and-nutrient-ratios.822922/
the above thread I really wish had more feedback

please contribute If you have a opinion on Alkalinity/Calcium/ et tolerances/params; what factors govern your decision? your risk assessment? what is your implementation & delivery strategy to reach, maintain and stabilize those params? How much variance or tolerance do you believe is biologically optimal for corals? (how much alk or calcium swing is tolerated before stress)

 

[Doctorgori]

^^^^ all my links were broken, they should be fixed now?

 

[TheDragonsReef]

I run nsw parameters everywhere except nitrates and phosphates. I run them higher than nsw because natural levels are too close to 0 to reciprocate in an aquarium when they can easily bottom out. I have what i consider great success in this hobby at the levels i run and in the past when i tried things like higher alk/cal/mg for sps growth or uln ive always ran into problems i couldnt fix until going back to nsw levels. Im no marine biologist but i do like to mess around and test new ideas in the hobby. Going outside of nsw parameters just never gave me the same growth and that was enough for me. Do i think it could still work? Sure, it just didnt for me in my system. Most notably at higher alk my euphyllia began to suffer above 10dkh. Also any time i did test different parameters, changes were made over multiple months to give the livestock time to adjust.

 

[Subsea]

79 degree temperature. I never use a heater and prefer water below 75 degrees.

I would guess, hobbiest want faster growth and elevated temperatures, within limits, grows faster. Many hobbiest wish to supercharge the growth of their corals, so more light & higher temperature. After 50 years of Reefing, I seek Dynanic Equilibrium which is much easier with lower temperatures & less intense light. Also, a friend who does Seahorses is focused on lowering temperature so as not to favor bacteria infections in her ponies.

Good luck on your many other questions.

 

[Doctorgori]

I run nsw parameters everywhere except nitrates and phosphates. I run them higher than nsw because natural levels are too close to 0 to reciprocate in an aquarium when they can easily bottom out. I have what i consider great success in this hobby at the levels i run and in the past when i tried things like higher alk/cal/mg for sps growth or uln ive always ran into problems i couldnt fix until going back to nsw levels. Im no marine biologist but i do like to mess around and test new ideas in the hobby. Going outside of nsw parameters just never gave me the same growth and that was enough for me. Do i think it could still work? Sure, it just didnt for me in my system. Most notably at higher alk my euphyllia began to suffer above 10dkh. Also any time i did test different parameters, changes were made over multiple months to give the livestock time to adjust.

Thank you… my takeaway is your not jumping from 9dkh down to 7 in one day lol
anyway can you spell your numbers out and how/what are you dosing
and just for reference, and a baseline here is Randy’s table on NSW params and BTW he’s a chemist/reefer… he gives his take on params
He gives his take and justifications

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/

 

[Doctorgori]

79 degree temperature. I never use a heater and prefer water below 75 degrees.

I would guess, hobbiest want faster growth and elevated temperatures, within limits, grows faster. Many hobbiest wish to supercharge the growth of their corals, so more light & higher temperature. After 50 years of Reefing, I seek Dynanic Equilibrium which is much easier with lower temperatures & less intense light. Also, a friend who does Seahorses is focused on lowering temperature so as not to favor bacteria infections in her ponies.

Good luck on your many other questions.

yeah, Seahorses and no heater on any tank over 40g …honestly in a heated home south of Canada, I see NO reason esp given thier reliability…
Congrats on 50yrs reefing, you divorced? send kids to college or are you just rich and live in Fiji? (Im pushing 40yrs)
Any chance you can offer your alk/calcium params and also just admit to using kalkwasser and mh bulbs lol

 

[jfoahs04]

I don't think chasing NSW parameters is a great idea. But I do think using them as a baseline to see what works best in our tanks is a good idea. The parameters we follow (alk/calc/temp/ph/mag, etc.) only paint a partial picture of what goes on in the ocean and what fuels the reef. It's impossible to duplicate that in our little glass boxes. There's a reason why someone can be "ideal" in every category on their ICP test results and still have a tank that's crashing.

Case in point, I'm Currently running a little nano on actual, untreated local NSW that I collect in 5 gallon buckets every week. Apart from RODI topoff, that's all that's the only water that's gone into my tank. My dosing regimen exists only to maintain/keep stable default NSW parameters (7dkh, 420 mg/l calcium, 1310 ppm magnesium). But even then, my nitrate and phosphate are higher than what you'd ever test in the ocean. Even with 50% water changes weekly, running nutrients that low would be problematic in a way it never would in the ocean. I'm trying to keep it as "natural" as possible, but I still have to compromise.

Ultimately, I think the best thing is to do what's easiest to maintain a stable system within or close to "ideal" parameters. Trust your livestock, it'll let you know when something is off. For me, dosing to get my NSW's alk up to 9 (from a default of 7) would be stupid, especially since 7 is working just fine. It's more work and runs the risk of human/machine error and a swing that could wipe out my coral. Likewise, if you have a healthy system at 10dkh, why would you work to drop it to 7 just because that's what the ocean is? Numbers are important, but some people become so obsessed they lose site of the forest for the trees.

 

[TheDragonsReef]

Thank you… my takeaway is your not jumping from 9dkh down to 7 in one day lol
anyway can you spell your numbers out and how/what are you dosing
and just for reference, and a baseline here is Randy’s table on NSW params and BTW he’s a chemist/reefer… he gives his take on params
He gives his take and justifications

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/

No i would never change more than 1dkh a month personally if i was trying to raise or lower. Also as stated above by jfoahs i wouldnt chase any number if your system is healthy and growth and coloration is good.

My parameters are

Temp: 78
Salinity: 1.025-1.026
Alkalinity: 7.5 dkh
Calcium: 400
Magnesium: 1400
Nitrates: 15-25ppm
Phosphates: 0.06-0.10

Dosing is brs 2 part for alk cal and mg and i dose trace elements depending on icp results.

 

[Tonycass12]

I use NSW parameters as a baseline. Have had good success with elevating the nutrients a bit but my alk stays between 7-8 and I keep the temps around 78. Is this the only way? Probably not. Its well documented that elevated levels can get faster growth but thats also going to come with added risks IMO. Staying closer to the baseline is easier for me to handle. Ive tried to keep all higher but for my system it resulted in a lot of swings.

 

[mdb_talon]

Personally I find better success not using NSW parameters. I run higher nitrate, higher phosphate, higher alk, higher MG. I am not a believer that trying to nail NSW parameters exactly is any better and generally I would argue that in some cases we have good indications that it is worse (nitrate/phosphate) for example. For others like alkalinity 7dkh can work just fine, but there is reasonable evidence that alk levels above NSW can lead to faster growth.

 

[Doctorgori]

I use NSW parameters as a baseline. Have had good success with elevating the nutrients a bit but my alk stays between 7-8 and I keep the temps around 78. Is this the only way? Probably not. Its well documented that elevated levels can get faster growth but thats also going to come with added risks IMO. Staying closer to the baseline is easier for me to handle. Ive tried to keep all higher but for my system it resulted in a lot of swings.

BRS did a vid on elevated alkalinity = faster growth but didn’t touch on the associated side effects. I suppose that’s the details that are missing here… exactly what problems do elevated dkh numbers cause? (assuming stable elevated numbers)
I don’t wanna misquote them (again) so I’ll go look for the vid

 

[TheDragonsReef]

BRS did a vid on elevated alkalinity = faster growth but didn’t touch on the associated side effects. I suppose that’s the details that are missing here… exactly what problems do elevated dkh numbers cause? (assuming stable elevated numbers)
I don’t wanna misquote them (again) so I’ll go look for the vid

This is the video along with their live test of the theory that got me want to try higher dkh levels. However i also noticed they only really tested with sps. Its my lps and softies that suffered when nearing 11-12dkh. Sps did fine. I also noticed increased mortality of new additions that were most likely accustomed to lower dkh values

 

[HuduVudu]

I have stopped holding temperature in a narrow range. I baseline at 74F on the lower side and 83F at the top. I let the tank do what it wants from there. I have not seen any issues from this.

I currently have stupid high alk (10.0dKH) and I am not wanting it. Long story how it got there. What I can say about it is that my LPS are absolutely ticked at this alk. I am trying desperately through feeding to keep them from death but it is an uphill battle and I am not willing to yank the tank down to get what I want. Hopefully through water changes I can get it back into some semblance of normalcy.

I had asked about where the NSW parameters came from in a seperate and got really no response. I have seen these numbers for well over 20 years so they are not new. I also live very near the Gulf of Mexico and as I am doing water changes with that water. I test out of curiousity. Interesting the two times I have done this.

Either way, I am still exploring what seems to work and what doesn't.

 

[Doctorgori]

This is the video along with their live test of the theory that got me want to try higher dkh levels. However i also noticed they only really tested with sps. Its my lps and softies that suffered when nearing 11-12dkh. Sps did fine. I also noticed increased mortality of new additions that were most likely accustomed to lower dkh values

….my VERY anecdotal testimony:
I don’t know what dkh exactly p*zzz off LPS but If you could make a blanket statement covering all the assorted genera I can irresponsibly state they seem more sensitive to upswings, esp torches.., just my sample , who knows what other params could be in play

 

[Tonycass12]

BRS did a vid on elevated alkalinity = faster growth but didn’t touch on the associated side effects. I suppose that’s the details that are missing here… exactly what problems do elevated dkh numbers cause? (assuming stable elevated numbers)
I don’t wanna misquote them (again) so I’ll go look for the vid

This is only my anecdotal opinion but I felt like with elevated levels things become much more sensitive to even smaller swings in parameters and you really have to stay on top of everything to keep those elevated levels stable. If you can afford a trident or you have the time to test everything multiple times a week this may not be a problem, I work 10hrs a day with an hr drive to and from work. Getting things done after work is tough so I take a minimal approach due to the constraints that have come with the life I live. I test heavy one week a month (3-4 days that week), full parameters and adjust my doser accordingly. The rest of the month ill do one or two alk tests a week to keep an eye on things. Alk fluctuations are the fastest thing to happen in my tank so they are a good indicator for letting me know if things are OK or I need to look into things further. I feel like I've gotten good at looking at the corals and seeing when I'm starting to have an issue and will use them as a flag to get heavier on testing as well. And as also stated above ive had way better success with my lps with levels closer to NSW. When my levels were elevated acans would shrink until they dissappear.

Everyone's tanks and goals are different and I dont want my experience to be taken as fact. You should get to know your corals and if you want to elevate you parameters go ahead just go slow and your corals will tell you if its right for your tank.

 

[Nano sapiens]

The parameters we now consider 'reef aquarium parameter norms' are partly derived from measurements done on subsets of tropical reefs around the world (to provide an average) and partly due to the earlier pioneer 'influencers' who had experience, wrote books and published articles. At any rate, the vast majority of beginning reef aquarists will do fine with these reef aquarium norm parameters if they can maintain relative stability. Considering the absolutely huge quantity of sea water, natural offshore reef water chemistry can't help but be quite stable so it makes sense for us to provide the same.

Bottom line is that corals are adaptable. Although they can be naturally adapted to a particular environment that falls out of the typical reef norm (such as the Red Sea), the majority of our corals come from very similar tropical reef chemical parameter environments. Temperature and light on various reefs can be of a more variable nature, both over the span of the year and at varying depths. But for a coral living at 10 meters on an equatorial Indonesian reef, the temperature variation from 'summer' to 'winter' is relatively small and the change very gradual over the year. Move 10 degrees north or south however, and variability in temperature and light availability over the year becomes more pronounced.

 

[HuduVudu]

Its my lps and softies that suffered when nearing 11-12dkh.

@Doctorgori I did not see this when I posted. I am glad you quoted it because it caught my eye. I figured others wouldn't have had the same experience.

 

[CNDReef]

If I’m not totally mistaken a lot of reefs actually run at 6.5dkh and not 7.5. The 7.5 was the average of all the reefs in the world.

 

[Doctorgori]

I have stopped holding temperature in a narrow range. I baseline at 74F on the lower side and 83F at the top. I let the tank do what it wants from there. I have not seen any issues from this.

I currently have stupid high alk (10.0dKH) and I am not wanting it. Long story how it got there. What I can say about it is that my LPS are absolutely ticked at this alk. I am trying desperately through feeding to keep them from death but it is an uphill battle and I am not willing to yank the tank down to get what I want. Hopefully through water changes I can get it back into some semblance of normalcy.

I had asked about where the NSW parameters came from in a seperate and got really no response. I have seen these numbers for well over 20 years so they are not new. I also live very near the Gulf of Mexico and as I am doing water changes with that water. I test out of curiousity. Interesting the two times I have done this.

Either way, I am still exploring what seems to work and what doesn't.

I’m gonna just come out and say it: temp stability is grossly overrated… could be beneficial to keep spot on temps, I dunno,….but I can say IME swinging temps are hardly fatal or for that matter even noticeably stressful. I’m talking a few degree swing a day is all nothing crazy … and BTW I kept my seahorse/lps tank for a few yrs in the low 70s ….maybe longer
…and BTW pt 2 i’ve had both sw and fw tanks dip into the low 60s for nearly a day with zero fatalities…this has happened to me more than once

 

[HuduVudu]

This is only my anecdotal opinion but I felt like with elevated levels things become much more sensitive to even smaller swings in parameters and you really have to stay on top of everything to keep those elevated levels stable.

I am able to keep my levels stable as high as they are currently. I wished however that I could get them down. I am not sure that agree with your statement. I feel you can keep them stable. Getting them where you want them can be challenging.