Chelated copper is chelated copper

[Humblefish]

So, in an effort to help clear up this whole chelated copper mess, I reached out to the mfg of Copper Power about their 2.5ppm recommendation:

ME:

Hi Alice - I have one further question, if you don’t mind.

Is it absolutely necessary to treat with Copper Power at 2.5 ppm? That seems a bit on the high side. In my previous experiences with using chelated copper, 1.5 - 2.0 ppm has always been the accepted therapeutic range.

If 2.5 ppm is necessary, can you please explain why? Why does Copper Power require this higher therapeutic level?

Best regards,
Robert Miller
Humblefish Aquatics LLC

COPPER POWER:

Hello Robert,

1.5 ppm is an acceptable level. We only advise using Copper Power at 2.5 ppm if necessary. It will still be safe at that level. Monitor levels at least every three (3) days for 2 weeks during an outbreak. Most parasites have a 12-14 day life cycle.

Regards,
Alice Johnson
Endich Incorporated

Thanks to @HotRocks, we are now reasonably sure that the mfg of Coppersafe has been giving inaccurate dosing information; whereas Copper Power’s dosing instructions appear to be spot on. Here is the thread in case you missed it: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...instruments-high-range-copper-checker.368943/

Therefore, let’s summarize:

1. The therapeutic range for chelated copper is 1.5 - 2.0 ppm, regardless of product.
2. DO NOT TRUST Coppersafe’s dosing instructions.
3. DO NOT FOLLOW Copper Power’s exact dosing instructions, as doing so will slightly overdose the Cu level to 2.5 ppm.

What to do? What to do?!

At present time, your best option is to “pair” using Copper Power with this Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter as per @HotRocks recent experiences: https://hannainst.com/hi702-copper-hr.html

Your old bottle of Coppersafe is still fine to use, but use the Hanna Checker to verify the Cu level is between 1.5 - 2.0 ppm.

@HotRocks Since Copper Power seems to be fairly consistent, can you provide our members with dosing info to achieve both 1.5 and 2.0 ppm? To use as a starting point... (I’m assuming Coppersafe is too inconsistent to provide the same information.)

PLEASE NOTE: This information is fluid and subject to change. For example, we are still awaiting confirmation from @Hanna Instruments that their HI702 colorimeter works in the presence of saltwater. Once this has been confirmed, stickies will be adjusted to reflect this new information. In the meanwhile, please bear with us as we attempt to sort this all out.

 

[4FordFamily]

I might add that all preliminary (unofficial) testing so far by @HotRocks indicates fresh and salt yield accurate copper results. Hanna is testing to ensure they cover their tails before making a determination but I’ve experimented with it and cross referenced to known copper testing methods. I was present when many of @HotRocks tests were completed.

Coppersafe/Fritz denies any change in their product as well, despite a myriad of hobbyists experiencing issues. Copper Power AND Cupramine both have accurate dosing information, as Hanna Copper Checker confirms. Only Coppersafe tests far outside of the target range indicated by the dosing on the bottle if used as directed. In addition, the 1.16 ppm target dose written on the bottle of Coppersafe is not therapeutic, regardless.

When I dose Copper Power I reduce the dosing instructions by 20% to yield a 2.0 PPM target.

 

[HotRocks]

Thanks, @Humblefish, I think we are well on our way to finding an affordable solution for people to accurately test/monitor through the copper treatment process.

Dosing instructions for Copper Power:
Bottle reads 1oz per 20 gallons. (I have checked several bottles, at least 6, all of which using the hanna method, yield 2.5ppm)
This equates to 29.5ml per 20 Gallons to achieve a 2.5ppm level. Or 1.475ml Per Gallon

1.18ml per gallon = 2.0ppm

.89ml per gallon = 1.5ppm

All of that being said,
I think it would be a good idea to dose 1ml per gallon as a baseline, testing throughout (If the hanna method is being used). Once you have reached your target total for your total gallons over the ramp up period, you can easily test and adjust as need be.

If you are using visual test methods, such as API, Hach, Chemetrics, I would use shoot for the dosage of 1.1-1.18ml per gallon in an effort to maintain a level above the therapeutic minimum.

FYI I just bought these syringes from amazon if anyone is wondering.
https://www.amazon.com/Pack-Refilli...=1521806958&sr=8-6&keywords=blunt+tip+syringe


As far a Copper Safe goes. Due to my own personal experiences, and others in the community reporting reaching therapeutic levels prior to dosing instructions, it would be hard to suggest a dose.
There has been a change along the line, but it is not found to be consistent is the problem at hand.
I highly recommend if you are going continue to use it with visual test methods, Don't worry about dosing instructions. Do whatever you have in the past, Just test every time you dose (knowing that you may see higher than expected results), until you reach the mark.

Or if you pick up the hanna tester. You can dose the instructed amount (1.25ml) into 4 gallons of water. Mix Well. Then test. This will tell you what concentration of the product you have and you can dose accordingly.
I would not recommend using any less than 4 gallons to run the concentration test, as there is marginal room for error.

 

[ihavecrabs]

@Humblefish @HotRocks @4FordFamily

You guys rock!

@revhtree Make sure you give these three an extra special pat on the back for this one! This is sure to save thousands (if not tens of thousands) of fish dying unnecessarily due to poor instructions (either overdosing with copper or not dosing at therapeutic levels). That is something we can all get behind!

 

[4FordFamily]

@Humblefish @HotRocks @4FordFamily

You guys rock!

@revhtree Make sure you give these three an extra special pat on the back for this one! This is sure to save thousands (if not tens of thousands) of fish dying unnecessarily due to poor instructions (either overdosing with copper or not dosing at therapeutic levels). That is something we can all get behind!

Thanks, @HotRocks was the orchestrator!

 

[Humblefish]

Yes, @HotRocks got the ball rolling with this. I’m just trying to tie up any loose ends.

What I think will ultimately happen with the copper sticky is this:

• Cupramine can be accurately tested using either the Seachem or Salifert copper test kit.
• But for Coppersafe/Copper Power, you will need to use the Hanna Colorimeter to test. The API copper test kit can no longer be trusted.

So, pick your poison (literally ). The cheap/easy thing to do is use Cupramine with one of the above test kits. However IME, Cupramine is harsher on certain species. I still feel chelated copper is the better option, but you will need to pony up $50 for the Hanna Colorimeter plus $10 for more reagents (25 Tests).

 

[Brew12]

So, in an effort to help clear up this whole chelated copper mess, I reached out to the mfg of Copper Power about their 2.5ppm recommendation:

ME:


COPPER POWER:


Thanks to @HotRocks, we are now reasonably sure that the mfg of Coppersafe has been giving inaccurate dosing information; whereas Copper Power’s dosing instructions appear to be spot on. Here is the thread in case you missed it: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...instruments-high-range-copper-checker.368943/

Therefore, let’s summarize:

1. The therapeutic range for chelated copper is 1.5 - 2.0 ppm, regardless of product.
2. DO NOT TRUST Coppersafe’s dosing instructions.
3. DO NOT FOLLOW Copper Power’s exact dosing instructions, as doing so will slightly overdose the Cu level to 2.5 ppm.

What to do? What to do?!

At present time, your best option is to “pair” using Copper Power with this Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter as per @HotRocks recent experiences: https://hannainst.com/hi702-copper-hr.html

Your old bottle of Coppersafe is still fine to use, but use the Hanna Checker to verify the Cu level is between 1.5 - 2.0 ppm.

@HotRocks Since Copper Power seems to be fairly consistent, can you provide our members with dosing info to achieve both 1.5 and 2.0 ppm? To use as a starting point... (I’m assuming Coppersafe is too inconsistent to provide the same information.)

PLEASE NOTE: This information is fluid and subject to change. For example, we are still awaiting confirmation from @Hanna Instruments that their HI702 colorimeter works in the presence of saltwater. Once this has been confirmed, stickies will be adjusted to reflect this new information. In the meanwhile, please bear with us as we attempt to sort this all out.

Great work as usual!

I do want to throw out a word of caution on assuming that all chelated coppers are the same. The chelating process reduces the availability of cupric ions which provides the toxicity we need. If both copper power and copper safe have the same treatment levels than they must use the same chelating agent. I believe they are both chelated with EDTA but haven't been able to confirm either.

As I've dug way too deep into this, I have also found another potential pitfall. Amino acids. It is absolutely critical to never use any form of amino acid in a tank treated with chelated copper!!!! The interactions of amino acids can "recover" the copper from the chelating agent. Basically, if you add enough acetate or amino acids to chelated copper you can turn it ionic again. ;Nailbiting

 

[HotRocks]

Yes, @HotRocks got the ball rolling with this. I’m just trying to tie up any loose ends.

What I think will ultimately happen with the copper sticky is this:

• Cupramine can be accurately tested using either the Seachem or Salifert copper test kit.
• But for Coppersafe/Copper Power, you will need to use the Hanna Colorimeter to test. The API copper test kit can no longer be trusted.

So, pick your poison (literally ). The cheap/easy thing to do is use Cupramine with one of the above test kits. However IME, Cupramine is harsher on certain species. I still feel chelated copper is the better option, but you will need to pony up $50 for the Hanna Colorimeter plus $10 for more reagents (25 Tests).

Added benefit to this, is the small amount of testing I have done, hanna also reads cupramine accurately as well. If someone wanted the assurance, it could be an option.
I have also ordered cuprion just to see if it tests accurately.

 

[HotRocks]

Great work as usual!

I do want to throw out a word of caution on assuming that all chelated coppers are the same. The chelating process reduces the availability of cupric ions which provides the toxicity we need. If both copper power and copper safe have the same treatment levels than they must use the same chelating agent. I believe they are both chelated with EDTA but haven't been able to confirm either.

As I've dug way too deep into this, I have also found another potential pitfall. Amino acids. It is absolutely critical to never use any form of amino acid in a tank treated with chelated copper!!!! The interactions of amino acids can "recover" the copper from the chelating agent. Basically, if you add enough acetate or amino acids to chelated copper you can turn it ionic again. ;Nailbiting

So does this mean, mixing selcon into prepared frozen food in QT, could cause problems?

 

[Brew12]

So does this mean, mixing selcon into prepared frozen food in QT, could cause problems?

I'm not sure. The only ingredient I can see that would worry me is the HUFA. I don't know how stable it is. I doubt it would cause problems in very small quantities.

What I would worry more about is using a reef salt that is "Probiotic" or has any other indication it may contain amino acids.

 

[4FordFamily]

Yes, @HotRocks got the ball rolling with this. I’m just trying to tie up any loose ends.

What I think will ultimately happen with the copper sticky is this:

• Cupramine can be accurately tested using either the Seachem or Salifert copper test kit.
• But for Coppersafe/Copper Power, you will need to use the Hanna Colorimeter to test. The API copper test kit can no longer be trusted.

So, pick your poison (literally ). The cheap/easy thing to do is use Cupramine with one of the above test kits. However IME, Cupramine is harsher on certain species. I still feel chelated copper is the better option, but you will need to pony up $50 for the Hanna Colorimeter plus $10 for more reagents (25 Tests).

As already mentioned. Cupramine was tested several times and Hanna Checker was just as accurate, with all results within+/- .04 ppm. Half of the tests I witnessed or were relayed to me by @HotRocks were vitally .50 on the nose. This can and should be further tested, but in my opinion Hanna is every bit as accurate at measuring ionic copper as chelated.

I'm not sure. The only ingredient I can see that would worry me is the HUFA. I don't know how stable it is. I doubt it would cause problems in very small quantities.

What I would worry more about is using a reef salt that is "Probiotic" or has any other indication it may contain amino acids.

Now I need to check my instant ocean!

 

[Brew12]

As already mentioned. Cupramine was tested several times and Hanna Checker was just as accurate, with all results within+/- .04 ppm. Half of the tests I witnessed or were relayed to me by @HotRocks were vitally .50 on the nose. This can and should be further tested, but in my opinion Hanna is every bit as accurate at measuring ionic copper as chelated.



Now I need to check my instant ocean!

IO doesn't contain any amino acids.

 

[HotRocks]

IO doesn't contain any amino acids.

Ok that is good to know.

 

[4FordFamily]

A secondary point I will make, even if the two coppers are chelated differently, the results given by Hanna Copper Checker were benchmarked against API results for reference when testing both.

Granted, API was harder to discern but it seemed consistent. Of course, coppersafe dosing is much trickier but I firmly believe that it tests both accurately, based on the tests, benchmarking, and symptoms of affected fish.

 

[Humblefish]

As already mentioned. Cupramine was tested several times and Hanna Checker was just as accurate, with all results within+/- .04 ppm. Half of the tests I witnessed or were relayed to me by @HotRocks were vitally .50 on the nose. This can and should be further tested, but in my opinion Hanna is every bit as accurate at measuring ionic copper as chelated.

I was thinking more along the lines of cost savings. Some folks are on a tight budget, and a Salifert copper test kit is only like $12-13 on Amazon. I don’t want people feeling like they can’t afford to use copper when needed, because of a $50-60 Colorimeter they might not be able to afford.

Cupramine + Seachem or Salifert test kit is the best option for our members on a budget.

 

[Humblefish]

A secondary point I will make, even if the two coppers are chelated differently, the results given by Hanna Copper Checker were benchmarked against API results for reference when testing both.

How “off” is Coppersafe & Copper Power when testing with the API? Comparing both to the Hanna Checker reading.

(I’m in the same boat as everyone else; my Hanna Colorimeter & Reagents are on backorder. )

 

[4FordFamily]

I was thinking more along the lines of cost savings. Some folks are on a tight budget, and a Salifert copper test kit is only like $12-13 on Amazon. I don’t want people feeling like they can’t afford to use copper when needed, because of a $50-60 Colorimeter they might not be able to afford.

Cupramine + Seachem or Salifert test kit is the best option for our members on a budget.

This makes perfect sense. I just wanted to be sure that everyone knew that it *appears* Hanna Copper Checker is accurate with ionic and chelated copper, or at least the 3 we’ve tested: Coppersafe, Copper Power, and Cupramine

 

[4FordFamily]

How “off” is Coppersafe & Copper Power when testing with the API? Comparing both to the Hanna Checker reading.

(I’m in the same boat as everyone else; my Hanna Colorimeter & Reagents are on backorder. )

When you have Hanna giving you a number, I’d say the two are within .25 of each other visually. I would say they match identically but the bias of having a digital read out probably contributes to that assertion. They look to be agreeable, but as we know API is tough to read.

@HotRocks agree? Disagree?

 

[Brew12]

A secondary point I will make, even if the two coppers are chelated differently, the results given by Hanna Copper Checker were benchmarked against API results for reference when testing both.

The hanna checker should read any and all chelated coppers correctly if it reads any of them correctly. The only issue I have is how to determine the correct dosing amount if either a new product hits the market or one of these 2 change their chelating agent? We rely on people like @Humblefish to provide accurate guidance through a lot of trial and error. There won't always be someone like him with the time and energy to conduct these trials. We've learned we can't rely on the companies themselves. Chelated copper is so much more expensive than ionic copper that we can't rely on information from the fish food scientists.

 

[HotRocks]

When you have Hanna giving you a number, I’d say the two are within .25 of each other visually. I would say they match identically but the bias of having a digital read out probably contributes to that assertion. They look to be agreeable, but as we know API is tough to read.

@HotRocks agree? Disagree?

I agree, its very easy to accurately read the API when you have a digital reading sitting next to you (or say the two appear to match exactly, definitely within the .25ppm range).

I would also like to think, I could test with the API now more accurately having the additional experience using the two in combination.

Prior to having the digital reading, I have found that my practice was reading the test wrong, having the mental piece that you need to make sure you are at least 2.0 with chelated copper, to error on the side of caution maintaining a therapeutic level.