Chelated copper is chelated copper

[HotRocks]

so it is ok to still see signs of ich after 2 weeks

Typically you wouldn't. When you say seeing signs... Are you still seeing spots? Or behavioral symptoms?

Can you post a pic if they are spots? Could be turning into a secondary infection.

 

[Actuarious]

Here is a pic.

 

[Actuarious]

there appears to be a cyst attached to his underside

 

[HotRocks]

there appears to be a cyst attached to his underside

The cyst is lympho.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/lymphocystis.257461/

The markings on the fish are concerning. It's not ich. It looks kind of like Brook. Being there is a clown in the tank with him that is unaffected I'd lean towards a secondary bacterial infection.

Do you have a second QT? Since they have been in copper for 14 days best thing to do here is transfer fish to a sterile QT and start Metroplex, Kanaplex, and furan-2. This would cover both Brook and a wide range of infections.

The meds can be combined with copper with proper oxygenation and monitoring, but are going to be much more effective without the presence of copper.

@Humblefish @4FordFamily and I just had a similar situation with another member and it cleared up very quickly.

 

[Paul B]

Back when Men were Men we used to use copper pennies to cure ich. Is that chlelated copper or coppersafe? I don't want to make a mistake and give my fish the horrors.

 

[Rattzreef]

Back when Men were Men we used to use copper pennies to cure ich. Is that chlelated copper or coppersafe? I don't want to make a mistake and give my fish the horrors.

You mean you didn't spend them all on gumballs? LOL

 

[HotRocks]

Back when Men were Men we used to use copper pennies to cure ich. Is that chlelated copper or coppersafe? I don't want to make a mistake and give my fish the horrors.

I don't see how the two are related? Men and copper?

Your joke may have made more sense if copper safe wasn't chelated copper lol!

I know you are just having fun @Paul B.

I figured you guys rubbed your pennies together to buy oxydators!

 

[Actuarious]

Unfortunately I do not have a second QT. He looks way better than a week ago. I have been feeding a mix of focus metroplex and kanaplex.

 

[Actuarious]

I honestly thought he was a goner.

 

[Paul B]

Your joke may have made more sense if copper safe wasn't chelated copper lol!

It may have been a Joke, but we really did use pennies to cure ich.

 

[Matt VDB]

Great work as usual!

I do want to throw out a word of caution on assuming that all chelated coppers are the same. The chelating process reduces the availability of cupric ions which provides the toxicity we need. If both copper power and copper safe have the same treatment levels than they must use the same chelating agent. I believe they are both chelated with EDTA but haven't been able to confirm either.

As I've dug way too deep into this, I have also found another potential pitfall. Amino acids. It is absolutely critical to never use any form of amino acid in a tank treated with chelated copper!!!! The interactions of amino acids can "recover" the copper from the chelating agent. Basically, if you add enough acetate or amino acids to chelated copper you can turn it ionic again. ;Nailbiting

Nope. They aren't chelated with EDTA, I've analysed it in the lab for lols.

 

[Matt VDB]

Great work as usual!

I do want to throw out a word of caution on assuming that all chelated coppers are the same. The chelating process reduces the availability of cupric ions which provides the toxicity we need. If both copper power and copper safe have the same treatment levels than they must use the same chelating agent. I believe they are both chelated with EDTA but haven't been able to confirm either.

As I've dug way too deep into this, I have also found another potential pitfall. Amino acids. It is absolutely critical to never use any form of amino acid in a tank treated with chelated copper!!!! The interactions of amino acids can "recover" the copper from the chelating agent. Basically, if you add enough acetate or amino acids to chelated copper you can turn it ionic again. ;Nailbiting

Nope. They aren't chelated with EDTA, I've analysed it in the lab for lols.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Nope. They aren't chelated with EDTA, I've analysed it in the lab for lols.

I don't know the chemistry involved, but Coppersafe and Copper Power are both complexed with some amine compound. Cupramine is also (hence the name) but it is a different reaction and contains less ammonia.

The reaction may be this one:

Cu2+(aq) + 4 NH3 (aq) <==> Cu(NH3)4 (Tetra-ammine copper)

Jay

 

[alicia24]

So, in an effort to help clear up this whole chelated copper mess, I reached out to the mfg of Copper Power about their 2.5ppm recommendation:

ME:


COPPER POWER:


Thanks to @HotRocks, we are now reasonably sure that the mfg of Coppersafe has been giving inaccurate dosing information; whereas Copper Power’s dosing instructions appear to be spot on. Here is the thread in case you missed it: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...instruments-high-range-copper-checker.368943/

Therefore, let’s summarize:

1. The therapeutic range for chelated copper is 1.5 - 2.0 ppm, regardless of product.
2. DO NOT TRUST Coppersafe’s dosing instructions.
3. DO NOT FOLLOW Copper Power’s exact dosing instructions, as doing so will slightly overdose the Cu level to 2.5 ppm.

What to do? What to do?!

At present time, your best option is to “pair” using Copper Power with this Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter as per @HotRocks recent experiences: https://hannainst.com/hi702-copper-hr.html

Your old bottle of Coppersafe is still fine to use, but use the Hanna Checker to verify the Cu level is between 1.5 - 2.0 ppm.

@HotRocks Since Copper Power seems to be fairly consistent, can you provide our members with dosing info to achieve both 1.5 and 2.0 ppm? To use as a starting point... (I’m assuming Coppersafe is too inconsistent to provide the same information.)

PLEASE NOTE: This information is fluid and subject to change. For example, we are still awaiting confirmation from @Hanna Instruments that their HI702 colorimeter works in the presence of saltwater. Once this has been confirmed, stickies will be adjusted to reflect this new information. In the meanwhile, please bear with us as we attempt to sort this all out.

Is the 1.5-2 still therapeutic for for copper power? I had fish in qt for 2.5 weeks and copper dropped to 1.83 (accidently) and I saw on your website it was I think 2-2.5. Just wondering if I have to restart clock for 30 days? Thank you! I usually try to maintain copper 2.25-2.5 but I really dont want to restart if possible.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Is the 1.5-2 still therapeutic for for copper power? I had fish in qt for 2.5 weeks and copper dropped to 1.83 (accidently) and I saw on your website it was I think 2-2.5. Just wondering if I have to restart clock for 30 days? Thank you! I usually try to maintain copper 2.25-2.5 but I really dont want to restart if possible.

That’s old information. I did extensive testing and coppersafe runs at 2.25 ppm as the standard dose, with 2.5 needed to treat active infections. Copper power runs a bit lower when dosed as per label instructions, but the same range applies. Using the Hanna checker is really the best way to test for this.

It isn’t true that you just “reset the clock” if you drop below a full dose - that really depends on how low it dropped and for how long. I normally tell people if it drops less than 25% of the normal dose, to just extend the treatment time for as long as it was too low. If it drops by more than 25%, then things are less clear. I’ve never had to start over though, unless there was active disease - the minimum then is at least 14 days beyond when the last symptom was seen.

 

[alicia24]

That’s old information. I did extensive testing and coppersafe runs at 2.25 ppm as the standard dose, with 2.5 needed to treat active infections. Copper power runs a bit lower when dosed as per label instructions, but the same range applies. Using the Hanna checker is really the best way to test for this.

It isn’t true that you just “reset the clock” if you drop below a full dose - that really depends on how low it dropped and for how long. I normally tell people if it drops less than 25% of the normal dose, to just extend the treatment time for as long as it was too low. If it drops by more than 25%, then things are less clear. I’ve never had to start over though, unless there was active disease - the minimum then is at least 14 days beyond when the last symptom was seen.

Thank you! I do use hanna. The fish were in my dt no symptoms. Went fallow because I bought a fish that got sick (not sure with what) it died. It dropped for probably 3 days I am guilty of not checking daily. It sounds like I can just tack a few days on.