Clownfish bruising/lesion?

[Jay Hemdal]

All,

Over the past two years or so, I've come across dozens of cases on the fish disease forum here of an issue with clownfish that we have not been able to identify. I've never seen it on any clownfish I've had myself, but the issue seems most common on designer clowns, which I don't work with.

Basically, the clownfish show a reddish/dark lesion under the skin that is only visible on the white portions of the fish. The lesions don't seem to break through to the surface like Uronema does. Sometimes the fish dies (but may have had other issues?) and sometimes the fish gets better, but a lot of these cases are "lost to follow up" where the original poster never gets back to us with the outcome.

For the time being, I'm going to call it CBD - Clownfish Bruising Disease. It does not seem to be highly contagious, if at all. External bath treatments are unlikely to help, as the discoloration is clearly deep down in the muscle tissue.

Here are some pictures I've collected here:

Thanks,

Jay


10/22/23: update. A photo came through the forum that showed a newly acquired copperband butterflyfish with a similar lesion. This fish died a few days later. It likely had internal Uronema. It may be that in some fish, the uronema protozoans don't erupt through the fish's skin, and can only be seen in the translucent areas of the body (such as below a white stripe).



#fishmedic

 

[MnFish1]

This might be one of those instances - where a biopsy/freshly shipped (I don't know whether someone should preserve one of these in formalin - and send it) - would be helpful. I would assume its a virus - OR it could be an in-breeding issue perhaps leading to infection with an unknown pathogen

EDIT - I.e. - Inbreeding leads to either a susceptibility to bacteria/virus that is not 'usual' - OR - inbreeding leads to an issue with some internal issue that we cannot identify. It seems like a biopsy is the only way to tell.

 

[Sharkbait19]

I know my mocha had a bit of what looked like small holes in the first white bar early on, eventually it went away. Not sure if it’s related or not, but it did look similar to that first pic.
Have you seen any cases in wild clowns, or just the captive ones? Maybe it is a side effect of the inbreeding.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I know my mocha had a bit of what looked like small holes in the first white bar early on, eventually it went away. Not sure if it’s related or not, but it did look similar to that first pic.
Have you seen any cases in wild clowns, or just the captive ones? Maybe it is a side effect of the inbreeding.

Only captive raised, usually strains with lots of white, and the problem seems to develop over time, so unlikely to be
genetic.

Jay

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Only captive raised, usually strains with lots of white, and the problem seems to develop over time, so unlikely to be
genetic.

Jay

I’m definitely not a disease expert here, but I’d say if you’ve never seen it in wild fish and it tends to happen with specific strains of captive bred fish, then the most likely option to me would seem to be (as alluded to above) a genetic predisposition/susceptibility of some sort (possibly through inbreeding, possibly just through the “luck of the draw”). It could be susceptibility to diseases of some kind or to specific chemicals/substances in the water.

That said, it seems possible to me that it may also be some sort of developmental nutrition issue (i.e. lack of proper nutrition during key juvenile phases leading to issues later in life).

Another thought (which may just demonstrate my lack of knowledge related to piscine diseases) is that maybe it’s not actually a lesion - maybe it’s just a stress related discoloration response with an unusual presentation caused by genetics (seems unlikely to me, but there have been cases of sheep with stripes and zebras with spots, so I’d imagine it’s possible).

I wish I knew for sure what was happening here, but I’ll be following along until someone figures it out.

 

[Spare time]

Maybe some sort of hemorrhaging/internal bleeding?

 

[nereefpat]

Sorry, Jay. I'm not really a clownfish guy, and I'm not much help here. I don't frequent the clown forums either.

Is it possible that it is, actually, uronema, and clowns are just tougher than Chromis so it doesn't present quite the same? Maybe that's a dumb question.

A clownfish disease (beyond brook) would be really bad for the hobby. New fish keepers go for clowns, and they are usually really hardy if captive bred.

I'll keep an eye out in the disease forums.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry, Jay. I'm not really a clownfish guy, and I'm not much help here. I don't frequent the clown forums either.

Is it possible that it is, actually, uronema, and clowns are just tougher than Chromis so it doesn't present quite the same? Maybe that's a dumb question.

A clownfish disease (beyond brook) would be really bad for the hobby. New fish keepers go for clowns, and they are usually really hardy if captive bred.

I'll keep an eye out in the disease forums.

It could be Uronema....back in the day *everyone* would diagnose Uronema infections as "an injury". Then, when looked at under a microscopes, the protozoan cause was found. I just haven't had one of these clown in hand yet to see what's up.


Thanks,

Jay

 

[ptrusk]

Original thread is here:

Bruise on clownfish

Just noticed a rather large blemish on clown fish. Right side under dorsal fin. She is the matriarch in a grow out tank only other resident is another submissive clown. Had them both for years. Only change I made recently was remove a huge hollywood stunner chalice. She is happy, otherwise...

www.reef2reef.com

A week later and the "bruise" is completely gone. I did late night recon and noticed the clown is now sleeping next to the heater (this tank has no sump) since I removed a massive chalice that she used to sleep under. I am thinking it was a burn from the heater.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Original thread is here:

Bruise on clownfish

Just noticed a rather large blemish on clown fish. Right side under dorsal fin. She is the matriarch in a grow out tank only other resident is another submissive clown. Had them both for years. Only change I made recently was remove a huge hollywood stunner chalice. She is happy, otherwise...

www.reef2reef.com

A week later and the "bruise" is completely gone. I did late night recon and noticed the clown is now sleeping next to the heater (this tank has no sump) since I removed a massive chalice that she used to sleep under. I am thinking it was a burn from the heater.

Could be, but unlikely. You have to really hold a heater firmly to get much heat from it, the surrounding water pulls the heat away pretty fast.
Glad it cleared up though! It may well be that fish that die with these lesions are actually dying from something else and these lesions are benign.
Jay

 

[Trying*this*again]

It's so hard to get a good picture... it definitely looks like a bruise. Hopefully this is better if not I can keep trying for a better one.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It's so hard to get a good picture... it definitely looks like a bruise. Hopefully this is better if not I can keep trying for a better one.

It looks like you have two threads about the same issue. Let's work on this issue on the other thread.....

Jay

 

[Janet Belanger]

My female DaVinci had this (or similar) back in Aug/Sept. She's a few years old and paired with the same mate for a long time. One min she's laying eggs and healthy, the next she has what looks like circular bruising on her white parts. The "bruising" seemed to subside. Her mate didn't seem to be impacted.

She had one night (unclear if related) where she struggled enough that I thought she was a goner. She was laying in the sand, breathing heavy, unable to stay upright. I scooped her into a clear cup to take a closer inspection for parasites and then put her in an acclimation box to allow her to rest away from the strong flow that was blowing her around. The next morning she was still a bit weak but seemed to feeling better and stronger than the night before. I let her out to reduce stress so she could be with her mate and now they're back to laying eggs.

My thought was she was stung by a somewhat recent addition of torch coral the pair decided to host, but the coral was host for weeks without issue. Then then there was sudden onset of symptoms for only my female.

 

[Tiny Ocean]

I found your thread while searching on this myself. My female (?) clown has been semi-hiding under rock for a week or more, I thought she might be guarding eggs, mainly stays on the bottom, definitely breathing harder than anyone else. I noticed a dark bruise area on one side 4 days ago, then 2 days ago the other side had the same bruising and she was hiding much more. Still popping out to eat food that floated by but def not as active as normal. Today the second "bruise" seems to be gone and the first is fading a little. She's been out in the water column more but still mainly staying on the floor, breathing hard. Perplexing!

This one fits the lots of white category too. I'm not sure if designer or what, she was a Petco fish sold as just regular clown a year ago. Just thought I'd contribute to this for anecdotal info.

 

[ptrusk]

In the interest of science let me add another anecdotal observation. I posted previously about this anomaly with my clown fish and since there have been posts about possibly being stung by corals. I recall now that I added some green nepthea from another tank that my clownies liked to play in around the time I noticed the bruises. This stuff is nasty. When I handle it, my fingers swell and itch. Yeah I rarely wear gloves.

Part 2. Is it possible to develop a sensitivity/allergy to coral toxins? I have been bare handing them for many years but lately whenever I move something my fingers swell and itch. Maybe just the bristleworms which are abundant in my systems but I have never experienced this before.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Part 2. Is it possible to develop a sensitivity/allergy to coral toxins? I have been bare handing them for many years but lately whenever I move something my fingers swell and itch. Maybe just the bristleworms which are abundant in my systems but I have never experienced this before.

I don't know for sure (so if I'm wrong hopefully someone will correct me), but I'd guess it's possible:

I'm not certain how things work with the marine environment and allergies, but I know some allergens (such as certain kinds of wood) can sensitize people to them overtime, meaning that people who work with the wood too much can develop allergies to it over time. So, I'd guess that it's possible that prolonged exposure to certain things in our tanks (bacteria, corals, various chemicals, etc.) could eventually lead to certain individuals becoming sensitized to (i.e. becoming allergic to) them. Again, I don't know for sure though.

 

[Tiny Ocean]

In the interest of science let me add another anecdotal observation. I posted previously about this anomaly with my clown fish and since there have been posts about possibly being stung by corals. I recall now that I added some green nepthea from another tank that my clownies liked to play in around the time I noticed the bruises. This stuff is nasty. When I handle it, my fingers swell and itch. Yeah I rarely wear gloves.

Part 2. Is it possible to develop a sensitivity/allergy to coral toxins? I have been bare handing them for many years but lately whenever I move something my fingers swell and itch. Maybe just the bristleworms which are abundant in my systems but I have never experienced this before.

I wondered about this too, especially with the bilateral injuries. I have 2 leathers which are not new but have never seen the clowns hanging around them, and my smaller clown has no injuries.

Interesting idea about allergy development! There's no reason it could *not* happen since people and animals can become allergic to anything at any time.

 

[Tiny Ocean]

Well, this little fish died a full month after I first noticed symptoms. I tried to QT her but couldn't get her out of the rock. Still no ideas, but like a week after I posted this, the dark areas began to spread and her tail was really dark.
RIP little one.

 

[Jase4224]

Let me share my experience with this.. first off my clownfish pair are (were, only have the female now) WILD caught Percula’s. From Australia, I live here. In the following pic you can see the beginning of this illness in the middle bar and neck bar:

Eventually, all of the white was a dark colour. Then my clown began to act lethargic followed by bloating of the stomach. Only my male clown was affected and to this day my female is fine. My male died as a result around July 2022.

I separated this fish into a QT. The treatment I tried was Metronidazole to begin with. After three days no improvement. I then tried Blue Planet ‘Cure All’ (a mix of malachite green, acriflavine and methylene blue). This reduced the swelling of the clown, improved his movement and he began to eat again. He stayed in Cure All for three days (recommended dose/time) then back into normal seawater after that. He wet downhill pretty fast and after other attempts to medicate this fish died.

In total this took a few weeks to kill the fish. The change from a bit of darkness on the middle white bar, to eventually all white bars going dark was slow. I also acted very slow and didn’t touch him for the first two weeks because I reasoned ‘why would a disease follow a pigment/white bars?’. I didn’t treat until he got bloated and movements became laboured. Beginning to swim nose down.

Some background info..

This pair of clowns did have disease about 6 months into acquiring them that looked like Brook. I treated them with peroxide and FW baths and eventually used powdered peroxide salts from Reef Revolution. Never saw this disease again. After the full treatment of a few weeks dosing every morning and night.

Fast forward three years and all of my fish had been removed from the tank for three months due to a horrendous Ich outbreak brought in by new fish. When your LFS says they QT this doesn’t mean much! I lost some fish to the ich but saved many also (using Blue Planet ‘Cure All’ DESTROYS ICH). Anyway we decided to get new fish since we had QT’s set up and everything ready to go. Also we had time to observe and treat whilst the tank was fallow and we wanted to add new fish before the old ones re established hierarchy .

Unfortunately, my wife wanted Chromis (yuck) so we bought 12 + another small damsel that was bycatch. After a few days I noticed one had uronema. Crap. I immediately separated and tried to treat with metro but it eventually died treat ALL the Chromis, one Midas blenny, false gramma and the other random damsel that were housed together with metro. Eventually one other Chromis got uronema and I had discard it.

A couple of weeks later all the new fish went back into the tank. Everything was fine for a couple of months until the Chromis started getting uronema marks on them. I removed them all and put the down with clove oil.

Anyway, it was about a month later that my male clown started getting the darkness on his bars. Did it get Uronema from the Chromis? The Midas blenny, false gramma amd random damsel didn’t and they were in QT together. The only other thing was that I started dosing AF life source, Continuum Clean and MB7. I did wander if I caused an infection. I have had NO other losses to this day.

My current fish list is:
Percula clown female
Majestic angel
Blue hippo tang
Pacific sailfin
Purple tang
Midas blenny
False gramma
Damsel fish
Fox face
Banggai cardinal
2 x sand sifters

All doing fine. QT forever.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Let me share my experience with this.. first off my clownfish pair are (were, only have the female now) WILD caught Percula’s. From Australia, I live here. In the following pic you can see the beginning of this illness in the middle bar and neck bar:

Eventually, all of the white was a dark colour. Then my clown began to act lethargic followed by bloating of the stomach. Only my male clown was affected and to this day my female is fine. My male died as a result around July 2022.

I separated this fish into a QT. The treatment I tried was Metronidazole to begin with. After three days no improvement. I then tried Blue Planet ‘Cure All’ (a mix of malachite green, acriflavine and methylene blue). This reduced the swelling of the clown, improved his movement and he began to eat again. He stayed in Cure All for three days (recommended dose/time) then back into normal seawater after that. He wet downhill pretty fast and after other attempts to medicate this fish died.

In total this took a few weeks to kill the fish. The change from a bit of darkness on the middle white bar, to eventually all white bars going dark was slow. I also acted very slow and didn’t touch him for the first two weeks because I reasoned ‘why would a disease follow a pigment/white bars?’. I didn’t treat until he got bloated and movements became laboured. Beginning to swim nose down.

Some background info..

This pair of clowns did have disease about 6 months into acquiring them that looked like Brook. I treated them with peroxide and FW baths and eventually used powdered peroxide salts from Reef Revolution. Never saw this disease again. After the full treatment of a few weeks dosing every morning and night.

Fast forward three years and all of my fish had been removed from the tank for three months due to a horrendous Ich outbreak brought in by new fish. When your LFS says they QT this doesn’t mean much! I lost some fish to the ich but saved many also (using Blue Planet ‘Cure All’ DESTROYS ICH). Anyway we decided to get new fish since we had QT’s set up and everything ready to go. Also we had time to observe and treat whilst the tank was fallow and we wanted to add new fish before the old ones re established hierarchy .

Unfortunately, my wife wanted Chromis (yuck) so we bought 12 + another small damsel that was bycatch. After a few days I noticed one had uronema. Crap. I immediately separated and tried to treat with metro but it eventually died treat ALL the Chromis, one Midas blenny, false gramma and the other random damsel that were housed together with metro. Eventually one other Chromis got uronema and I had discard it.

A couple of weeks later all the new fish went back into the tank. Everything was fine for a couple of months until the Chromis started getting uronema marks on them. I removed them all and put the down with clove oil.

Anyway, it was about a month later that my male clown started getting the darkness on his bars. Did it get Uronema from the Chromis? The Midas blenny, false gramma amd random damsel didn’t and they were in QT together. The only other thing was that I started dosing AF life source, Continuum Clean and MB7. I did wander if I caused an infection. I have had NO other losses to this day.

My current fish list is:
Percula clown female
Majestic angel
Blue hippo tang
Pacific sailfin
Purple tang
Midas blenny
False gramma
Damsel fish
Fox face
Banggai cardinal
2 x sand sifters

All doing fine. QT forever.

Is it possible yes, and I would not rule out uronema. Being you are in Australia (Im so jealous), you can use Wunder formalin Or Ruby Rally Pro