Clownfish keep dying, help?

[seanmckerney]

I am at a loss as to what is happening with my clownfish. I set up a Fluval Evo 13.5, cycled it and put a pair of clowns in near the end of February. The clowns did great and were perfectly healthy until the end of April, when I came home and one was laying at the bottom of the tank heavily breathing and died shortly after, the other died later that night. After the fact I did a 50% water change and left it for a few weeks and then put a new pair in, they died within 2 hours. I then did a 20% water change and let the tank sit for a month (while continuing weekly 10% water changes) before adding another pair, which also died within 2 hours. Throughout all of this my water has been testing perfectly fine with consistent parameters. I went to my LFS for advice, who also tested my water and confirmed that all my parameters were good. I have always drip acclimated my fish, and this shop suggested I instead float the bag for 15 minutes, add equal parts tank water and float for another 15, and then add the fish (just the fish, not mixing water). They suggested the drip acclimation might be taking too long and depriving the fish of oxygen. If it matters at all, my LFS is about 45 minutes from my place, so the fish are in the bag for a bit over an hour by the time they make it into the tank. They graciously gave me one clown to see if the different acclimation would fix my problem, and so I took him home and he did great for a week. At the end of the week, they told me to bring him back and that my tank seemed to be good to go.

Yesterday I added a pair and they did great for the first night. This morning I woke up to one dead, and the other just died this afternoon. I am at an absolute loss as to what could be happening with these fish and so is the owner of my LFS who I’ve been working with. I’ve included a video, but my second clown began having difficulty swimming and getting swept up in the flow before it died. I’m not sure if this gives any indication to why it was dying or not. I’m still not sure as to how my first pair died, or how the others died so quickly while my “test” fish from the LFS was totally fine.

Attached is a video of how my tank is set up and a video of the clown struggling that ended up dying this afternoon. I’m at an absolute loss as to what’s wrong with this tank and I’m hoping someone can see something I don’t.

Thanks in advance
Parameters:
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 0
PH 8.4
Salinity 1.024 (weekly 10% water changes, Red Sea salt mixed with RODI)
Temp 78

 

[Jay Hemdal]

First thing - I couldn't tell, are there any invertebrates in the tank? If they are fine, then you can be less concerned about water quality issues.

You should aerate the water during drip acclimation.

Fish diseases take days to weeks to cause fish loss. The one thing that can cause fish loss in the first 2 to 24 hours is a salinity rise. If the fish at the store were at 1.018 and you moved them, even with acclimation, to 1.024, they will often die. If the stores tank was at full salinity, then that isn’t it. Also consider that perhaps your fish losses didn’t have the same causes....

Jay

 

[sgarron]

The only things that come to mind are a possible contamanent in the rock or sand?

Or, possibly signifigant stray voltage?

 

[Rmckoy]

Weird in a 13.5 gal you can fit a pair of clown fish .
they die as pairs ,
But singularly it’s ok ......
is aggression a possibility ?

 

[Rmckoy]

Hidden Mantis shrimp within the rocks ?
Do you have pictures of the tank ?

 

[seanmckerney]

The only things that come to mind are a possible contamanent in the rock or sand?

Or, possibly signifigant stray voltage?

Do you know what that contaminant might be, or how to solve this if this is true?

 

[seanmckerney]

First thing - I couldn't tell, are there any invertebrates in the tank? If they are fine, then you can be less concerned about water quality issues.

You should aerate the water during drip acclimation.

Fish diseases take days to weeks to cause fish loss. The one thing that can cause fish loss in the first 2 to 24 hours is a salinity rise. If the fish at the store were at 1.018 and you moved them, even with acclimation, to 1.024, they will often die. If the stores tank was at full salinity, then that isn’t it. Also consider that perhaps your fish losses didn’t have the same causes....

Jay

Yes! There are several snails who have all survived throughout all of this

 

[Rmckoy]

How to Remove a Mantis Shrimp From a Saltwater Aquarium - RateMyFishTank.com

In this article you will receive an overview of what mantis shrimp are, how they can impact your saltwater aquarium, and how to remove them properly.

www.ratemyfishtank.com

I’m still having a hard time thinking of why if 2 are added they die .
but if one was borrowed and added it was ok .

 

[Jay Hemdal]

How to Remove a Mantis Shrimp From a Saltwater Aquarium - RateMyFishTank.com

In this article you will receive an overview of what mantis shrimp are, how they can impact your saltwater aquarium, and how to remove them properly.

www.ratemyfishtank.com

I’m still having a hard time thinking of why if 2 are added they die .
but if one was borrowed and added it was ok .

Think back to the acclimation problem, maybe he borrowed fish came from a tank with a higher salinity?
Jay

 

[Rmckoy]

Think back to the acclimation problem, maybe he borrowed fish came from a tank with a higher salinity?
Jay

Would different salinity kill that fast ?

the acclimation process was later solved and tested with a single fish . And the new pair was added with the same acclimation process

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

it really is strange, considering that the first pair lived for more than 2 months, and the other pairs die quickly. Do you live alone, is someone cleaning your tank with chemicals? Are your machines all reliable and not being shut off at night, no temperature swings at night?

There is something funny going on, it can't be the acclimation IMO

 

[Rmckoy]

Think back to the acclimation problem, maybe he borrowed fish came from a tank with a higher salinity?
Jay

I agree partially ....
but most stores I have visited over the years keep their fish systems at lower salinity .
around 1.020-1.021 for a few reasons .
1) i was told it’s cheaper and a little less over head .
2) lower salinity apparently helps keeping parasites away ?
As many of us have done . Acclimating to reef salinity is always very time consuming and should be done slowly . Clownfish are supposed to be one of the hardiest .. they used to use clowns, damsels and mollies to cycle brand new aquariums as sacrificial ammonia source .

I’m leaning away from salinity being this particular issue , and more towards either a hungry predator lurking in the rocks ,
Or potentially hazardous pollutants

even stray voltage to kill in that time frame seams very unlikely and would be very noticeable ?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I agree partially ....
but most stores I have visited over the years keep their fish systems at lower salinity .
around 1.020-1.021 for a few reasons .
1) i was told it’s cheaper and a little less over head .
2) lower salinity apparently helps keeping parasites away ?
As many of us have done . Acclimating to reef salinity is always very time consuming and should be done slowly . Clownfish are supposed to be one of the hardiest .. they used to use clowns, damsels and mollies to cycle brand new aquariums as sacrificial ammonia source .

I’m leaning away from salinity being this particular issue , and more towards either a hungry predator lurking in the rocks ,
Or potentially hazardous pollutants

even stray voltage to kill in that time frame seams very unlikely and would be very noticeable ?

Stray voltage is a red herring, the fish aren't grounded, so there is no electrical potential....same reason birds can perch on high tension lines. Despite reading about this on just about every forum, stray voltage (usually just induced voltage from pumps) causes no issues. Trouble is, the idea has gotten so firmly entrenched that "everyone knows it's true"(grin). If you have current flowing to ground, then it becomes a human risk when you touch the tank, but that is another issue.

The salinity issue is bigger than many people realize. Fish can tolerate a drop in salinity very well, but a rise must be done slowly, else the fish dehydrates. Drip acclimation gets misused so very often. Here is an excerpt from an article I wrote about it (where I actually measured the rate):

Flow acclimation
Some advanced aquarists and fish importers utilize a technique known as “drip acclimation,” where a small hose is set up to siphon water from the main aquarium into an acclimation container. Home aquarists often try to emulate this method but almost always set the water flow rate too low. For example, for one liter of water, if the drip line is set to one drop of water per second, would take 50 hours to reach 90% equilibrium.

A rate of flow of one milliliter per second will result in one liter of shipping water reaching 90% equilibration in 2½ hours, a much more reasonable time frame. Even then, the aquarist must supply supplemental aeration and possibly temperature control during that time.

The general rule is to take 2 days to move a fish from 1.019 to 1.025, although it can be done in 24 hours in most cases. This isn't done in an acclimation container, but is done by adjusting the tank's salinity lower and then raising it up over a day or two. Can't be done with inverts in there of course.

The issue may not be from a salinity rise, but it does fit the scenario - UNLESS the one clown that did well came from the same system as the others and was acclimated the same way.

Jay

 

[Rmckoy]

Stray voltage is a red herring, the fish aren't grounded, so there is no electrical potential....same reason birds can perch on high tension lines. Despite reading about this on just about every forum, stray voltage (usually just induced voltage from pumps) causes no issues. Trouble is, the idea has gotten so firmly entrenched that "everyone knows it's true"(grin). If you have current flowing to ground, then it becomes a human risk when you touch the tank, but that is another issue.

The salinity issue is bigger than many people realize. Fish can tolerate a drop in salinity very well, but a rise must be done slowly, else the fish dehydrates. Drip acclimation gets misused so very often. Here is an excerpt from an article I wrote about it (where I actually measured the rate):

Flow acclimation
Some advanced aquarists and fish importers utilize a technique known as “drip acclimation,” where a small hose is set up to siphon water from the main aquarium into an acclimation container. Home aquarists often try to emulate this method but almost always set the water flow rate too low. For example, for one liter of water, if the drip line is set to one drop of water per second, would take 50 hours to reach 90% equilibrium.

A rate of flow of one milliliter per second will result in one liter of shipping water reaching 90% equilibration in 2½ hours, a much more reasonable time frame. Even then, the aquarist must supply supplemental aeration and possibly temperature control during that time.

The general rule is to take 2 days to move a fish from 1.019 to 1.025, although it can be done in 24 hours in most cases. This isn't done in an acclimation container, but is done by adjusting the tank's salinity lower and then raising it up over a day or two. Can't be done with inverts in there of course.

The issue may not be from a salinity rise, but it does fit the scenario - UNLESS the one clown that did well came from the same system as the others and was acclimated the same way.

Jay

Good read .
thank you .

so the best acclimation process for introducing fish ?

is floating and letting 1/2 tank water in to a bag with shipping water safest ?

I always read it was too much shock and best done slowly

 

[Birdbrains?]

I am terribly sorry to hear about your fish. You are probably feeling really bad about it now. Try to not let it shake you. Keeping marine life does tend to be the most peaceful and calming hobby one can have, right until it becomes a nightmare of stress. You will make it work and get that peaceful experience, just keep up your efforts and figure out what your fish needs to become happy and healthy in your tank. Besides what is already being mentioned here, I am thinking about two things that you can also consider after taking a look at your setup:

Are you sure the water column is getting enough aeration? Not all people have gear to test that specific aspect, so you may have overlooked something there. The clowns I keep are in a room where there is a window open all day long, all year. Even though your tank does have perfect disturbance of the surface, it could possibly be a problem with gas balance. Did any of your fish show any external signs of illness or trauma when they died?

Second thing I notice is the rockwork setup does not give much space to hide. In my experience, it takes anemonefish a rather long time before they feel safe in a new aquarium. In the wild they tend to depend a lot on knowing their territory like the back of their hand so to speak. It actually took a full year for the male clown I keep, before it really felt completely safe in its aquarium. The female spent a lot of time making the male feel safe before it even began moving out of its favourite hiding spot (unless it was feeding time) and I keep them in a dedicated tank with no other species of fish.

Since the back of your tank is open, the new fish that you introduce will initially feel concern and look for predators, to all sides of the tank. The tank I mentioned is open in the back like yours but there is many places to hide (compared to your rockwork). If possible, make sure the room where the tank is standing, is as calm and undisturbed as possible, for a good time after you introduce the next pair. The fishes can easily be more stressed out than they appear to be. Just until they have had enough time to figure out that your tank is perfectly safe. They should start to swim around and play more and more with eachother, while they begin to feel completely safe in the territory. The fish I keep can always see me nearby because I work from home but I am sitting in another room, where I can watch the tank through a hallway. So the fish can always see me and they got completely used to me so I can stick my hands into the tank and they just calmly move around my hands until I am finished. But the distance to where I sit when I am working, allowed them to be focused on guarding from imagined predators that was possibly inside the tank while they were settling into their new environment.

Clowns absolutely love places where the current of the water makes it easy for them to be on autopilot so to speak. The clowns I keep dance and play around in the entire territory but there is no doubt, it is a species of fish that also enjoys relaxing in a calm spot. I call the one side of my rockwork for "couch rock" because the smaller clown hangs out there, whenever it feels like taking a rest during the day. The female has a favourite autopilot spot in the other end of the tank, hovering still in the water column just above her anemone. The opening in the middle of your rockwork is good for hovering in autopilot. But that space it also is open on both sides, possibly leaving the newcomers with a feeling of constantly having to be on guard looking out of both sides. There is a similar spot in my rockwork, but it is semi-covered by rock on the backside, creating a cave with four different possible escape routes. You can consider doing a little rearranging of the rockwork to make more safespaces for them to hide until they stop stressing and for securing that they rest through the nighttime. The male clown I keep found that cave right away when I introduced it into the tank. The female actually had to spend 6months (!) on coaching and luring the male out of that cavesystem, before the male started swimming around freely. The best thing with these fish, is to make sure the male/subdominant fish can flee easily around in the rockwork. This allows the weakest of the pair to keep distance from the bigger fish until it feels ready to pair up. The bigger fish will ofc. hunt the smaller fish in the begining, which will stress both of them but by making your rockwork into a labyrinth of escape paths, you force the strongest of the fish to give up hunting the smaller one. When the bigger fish realises that the smaller fish will escape when it tries to hunt it, the bigger fish will switch to using a lure-strategy and try to make the smaller fish feel safe. This will lower the stress levels for both of the fish.

Don't be sad for too long. It is terrible to see the fish die but you will succeed. The first clown I kept, died because the room lacked oxygen during the night in the wintertime. I loved that fish. It had been at the LFS for years because it had a piece of gravel stuck in one gill. I could not stand to see it in that condition each time I went to the LFS to shop for saltwater items, so I bought it, and used a cuticle knife to dislodge the gravel from the gill. I was devastated when it later died because there was not enough oxygen in the room to supply the aquarium during the winternights. But keeping that clown also made me understand that it was my favourite species of all marine fishes. You will figure out what is going on with your tank and you will succeed, so do not let it get you down and keep your spirits up. It will be worth it in the end.

 

[stacksoner]

Fluval tanks are notorious for having nonexistent surface agitation / gas exchange.

 

[dyno]

First thing - I couldn't tell, are there any invertebrates in the tank? If they are fine, then you can be less concerned about water quality issues.

You should aerate the water during drip acclimation.

Fish diseases take days to weeks to cause fish loss. The one thing that can cause fish loss in the first 2 to 24 hours is a salinity rise. If the fish at the store were at 1.018 and you moved them, even with acclimation, to 1.024, they will often die. If the stores tank was at full salinity, then that isn’t it. Also consider that perhaps your fish losses didn’t have the same causes....

Jay

@Jay Hemdal why can fish handle a drop into a lower salinity with no problem and have so much trouble when adjusting quickly to a higher salinity?

 

[dyno]

@Jay Hemdal why can fish handle a drop into a lower salinity with no problem and have so much trouble when adjusting quickly to a higher salinity?

Sorry just saw your explanation in the following post.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal why can fish handle a drop into a lower salinity with no problem and have so much trouble when adjusting quickly to a higher salinity?

I don’t know why that is, but it is a kidney issue. It probably has something to do with a fish’s blood being lower specific gravity than seawater.
Jay

 

[kenichols]

Was a suggestion on what to do poated?