Conservation: Is Captive Bred Fish The Only Way?

[Gatorpa]

Cyanide is used because it has no visible negative effects for long enough that the fish can make their way through the supply chain before dying inexplicably in a home aquarium or retail store if they are there long enough. These people aren't concerned about using less harmful chemicals, they are all about maximising profits.

yep. Blue tangs were terrible for this. That’s why I never even tried to get one.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have a question that might fit in here, maybe someone or @Jay Hemdal can answer it: Would a more sustainable collection of fish be possible with better narcotics like Tricaine or clove oil instead of cyanide, like it still seems to be used, according to Jay's article.

What prevents the use of better narcotics for collecting wild caught fish that are hard to catch? Price? Efficiency?

I understand that the use of better narcotics may not be the best way but maybe a better way?

MS-222 is too expensive, and clove oil is too weak. Quinaldine is used in the Caribbean (Haiti) but it is also suspected of causing post-collection mortality. I don't know of the effects any of these would have on the reef itself though....

Public aquariums sometimes use MS-222 for specialty fish (garden eels, etc.). I caught a cave bass with it once. Another time, I sprayed it at some pygmy angels under a rock. They came floating out and a grouper swam up and ate them before I could net them!

Cyanide is cheap because it is a common industrial chemical.

Jay

 

[Albertoinbox]

I’m guessing since you feel so strongly you have no fish or invertebrates in your system…

I dont feel strongly about anything, its just reality, I dont make stuff up to indulge myself, I really wish it wasn't like this but I don't make the rules.

I dont run around the bush also, you're right, I admit it, I dont feel 100% good about keeping any animals, nobody should, just because I wouldnt want it done to me or anyone else. When I think these guys could be free I feel bad. Shouldn't be done. Thats very simple and logic, cant argue with that. You have to be honest.

The only way I can justify it is that humans tend to disrespect (destroy) what they dont know and in that sense its best for the animals that we interact with them, that way we learn to appreciate them. Sharks are a classic example, after they have been kept in public aquariums people had a chance to see that they're not "bad". Zoos are terrible also, but its the only way for humans in mass to get to know these animals and create consciousness about their existence and conservation. Its like one step backwards two steps forward. Go figure...

Yes, I'm selfish. We all are. But we love the ocean and we mean good, and that makes all the difference.

 

[maroun.c]

IMHO national organisations should better monitor population numbers as that would indicate if there is a real need or not for conservation. Believe fish populations will autoregulate their numbers based on many other factors than the aquarium hobby fishing, predation, food sources, pollution to worry about the aquarium.industry effect on most species.

 

[Homey D. Clownfish]

I dont feel strongly about anything, its just reality, I dont make stuff up to indulge myself, I really wish it wasn't like this but I don't make the rules.

I dont run around the bush also, you're right, I admit it, I dont feel 100% good about keeping any animals, nobody should, just because I wouldnt want it done to me or anyone else. When I think these guys could be free I feel bad. Shouldn't be done. Thats very simple and logic, cant argue with that. You have to be honest.

The only way I can justify it is that humans tend to disrespect (destroy) what they dont know and in that sense its best for the animals that we interact with them, that way we learn to appreciate them. Sharks are a classic example, after they have been kept in public aquariums people had a chance to see that they're not "bad". Zoos are terrible also, but its the only way for humans in mass to get to know these animals and create consciousness about their existence and conservation. Its like one step backwards two steps forward. Go figure...

Yes, I'm selfish. We all are. But we love the ocean and we mean good, and that makes all the difference.

Yeah, I always felt that zoos served a purpose beyond just looking at an animal in a cage or glass box. Most zoos serve some form of education on the animals, and I think that is important, especially for the younger generations that will form the basis of how we take care of the animals in the future. In a way, the animals in captivity have become a sort of ambassador for their species.

 

[Gatorpa]

IMHO national organisations should better monitor population numbers as that would indicate if there is a real need or not for conservation. Believe fish populations will autoregulate their numbers based on many other factors than the aquarium hobby fishing, predation, food sources, pollution to worry about the aquarium.industry effect on most species.

Sadly they are often driven by an agenda.
Take the Red Snapper fishery in the Atlantic

They have done a terrible job in estimating how well snapper have rebounded. I don’t know if it’s due to being inept or some other issue.

 

[Cool tangs]

I personally think we should put more time and effort into maintaining our beautiful natural coral reef ecosystems then captive breeding. Develop a deeper level of sustainable collection with limited numbers being taken, limit sizes to the juvenile fish and bring in hand catching only. I'd be happy to pay more for a sustainable collected fish knowing the collectors are putting more into maintaining and nurturing the eco system they are catching them from.

Australia has very strict rules on catching processes and importing captive bred fish is illegal.

On the other hand I can also see the benefits of captive bred, but what's the long term outcome? Do we lose focus on the natural habitat?

Personally whilst I enjoy watching my fish I do also try to think about there health as best as possible and like to think there pretty happy being free from predators and have constant feeding sessions. Collected fish can adapt very well to aquarium life if handled well and given the right environment and time.

The hard part is the stress from transport and that does not change with captive bred either. The fish still has to go through some form of shipping stress to get to it owner either way. Captive bred or not.

Just my 2 cents

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

It's A way but not the only way

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I personally think we should put more time and effort into maintaining our beautiful natural coral reef ecosystems then captive breeding. Develop a deeper level of sustainable collection with limited numbers being taken, limit sizes to the juvenile fish and bring in hand catching only. I'd be happy to pay more for a sustainable collected fish knowing the collectors are putting more into maintaining and nurturing the eco system they are catching them from.

Australia has very strict rules on catching processes and importing captive bred fish is illegal.

On the other hand I can also see the benefits of captive bred, but what's the long term outcome? Do we lose focus on the natural habitat?

Personally whilst I enjoy watching my fish I do also try to think about there health as best as possible and like to think there pretty happy being free from predators and have constant feeding sessions. Collected fish can adapt very well to aquarium life if handled well and given the right environment and time.

The hard part is the stress from transport and that does not change with captive bred either. The fish still has to go through some form of shipping stress to get to it owner either way. Captive bred or not.

Just my 2 cents

That is the back end to the sustainability equation that many people miss: if you care for you animals better, and can double their lifespan, you have in fact doubled their sustainability at the same time.
Jay

 

[MnFish1]

I prefer wild (properly) caught fish that are treated humanely.

The quotes below are not to agree or disagree with the topic - but illustrate part of the issue. No one knows what fish think, whether they are happier in the wild or captive bred. I do not think that responsible (i.e non-cyanide collected fish0 collected fish have any negative influence on coral reefs. Why do I prefer wild-caught fish:

1. They likely are at least partially immune to various parasites, etc as compared to captive-bred fish.
2. The selection of captive-bred fish is small.
3. Potential inbreeding leading to more health problems in captive-bred fish.
4. I do not think there is a difference in 'fish happiness' in a tank vis a vis captive-bred or wild. IMHO - from an evolutionary standpoint, most living things primary motives are 'eating' and 'breeding'. Some reef fish travel a lot - because they are looking for food as compared to wanting a trip around the reef. Most fish are kept singly - in our tanks (i.e. one yellow tang, one pygmy angel, etc) - there is no breeding allowed. That alone to me likely takes out at least part of the 'happiness' discussion.

One day, ALL wild caught marine life will be banned. Captive bred EVERYTHING is the future of the hobby.

wild caught fish are usually not as hardy, and can have long term health issues from the manor they were caught depending. Such as wild caught anthias, they almost always have cyanide poisoning.

I think captive bred is the less cruel option.
Think about it, wild caught reef fish have miles of territory and thousands of other inhabitants to interact with. Taking them out of that and confining them in a tank (even a big 350+ gal) has to have negative effects.

I dont run around the bush also, you're right, I admit it, I dont feel 100% good about keeping any animals, nobody should, just because I wouldnt want it done to me or anyone else.

Would you rather be a tang in an aquarium - or one of these? Which deer is 'happier' the one in a zoo - or the one being eaten by a grizzly bear? I prefer wild (properly) caught fish that are treated humanely.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I prefer wild (properly) caught fish that are treated humanely.

The quotes below are not to agree or disagree with the topic - but illustrate part of the issue. No one knows what fish think, whether they are happier in the wild or captive bred. I do not think that responsible (i.e non-cyanide collected fish0 collected fish have any negative influence on coral reefs. Why do I prefer wild-caught fish:

1. They likely are at least partially immune to various parasites, etc as compared to captive-bred fish.
2. The selection of captive-bred fish is small.
3. Potential inbreeding leading to more health problems in captive-bred fish.
4. I do not think there is a difference in 'fish happiness' in a tank vis a vis captive-bred or wild. IMHO - from an evolutionary standpoint, most living things primary motives are 'eating' and 'breeding'. Some reef fish travel a lot - because they are looking for food as compared to wanting a trip around the reef. Most fish are kept singly - in our tanks (i.e. one yellow tang, one pygmy angel, etc) - there is no breeding allowed. That alone to me likely takes out at least part of the 'happiness' discussion.







Would you rather be a tang in an aquarium - or one of these? Which deer is 'happier' the one in a zoo - or the one being eaten by a grizzly bear? I prefer wild (properly) caught fish that are treated humanely.

Interestingly, and counter intuitive, the answer to your last question is that dead animals have no welfare consideration...so fish in an aquarium can have poor welfare that the dead fish in the basket do not have. It took me many years to begin to understand/agree with that conundrum, but it is pretty well understood by the people who research this.

Jay

 

[death-by-reef]

captive breeding is the future of the hobby. when global warming screws up the oceans for good where do u think were going to get our fish?

 

[davidcalgary29]

I certainly don't think that one approach is going to suit all needs and circumstances. I prefer buying captive-bred fish, as I'm only interested in a generic type of the species for my tanks. But I think it's perfectly acceptable to want a certain wild-caught fish (that's not CITES restricted, of course), for a host of reasons, be it breeding, or wanting to observe certain behviours only observed in the wild, or whatnot.

Clowns are a special case. I'd like to think that the Mega Clown Industry has eased pressure off of wild populations, but am not sure that's actually the case in many countries.

 

[MnFish1]

Interestingly, and counter intuitive, the answer to your last question is that dead animals have no welfare consideration...so fish in an aquarium can have poor welfare that the dead fish in the basket do not have. It took me many years to begin to understand/agree with that conundrum, but it is pretty well understood by the people who research this.

Jay

This is one of the most interesting, thought-provoking thoughts I have read on R2R. On multiple levels societal, historical and fish-related. But - And - I know politics is not allowed - and I don't want to make this political. My point was I don't know if my fish are 'happy'. My harlequin tusk comes up to eat food out of my hand every day (and my finger tip), my tangs have their territory in the tank, etc etc. I also do not know if prisoner ABC is happier waiting for his multiple death sentence appeals - or after they are exhausted.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This is one of the most interesting, thought-provoking thoughts I have read on R2R. On multiple levels societal, historical and fish-related. But - And - I know politics is not allowed - and I don't want to make this political. My point was I don't know if my fish are 'happy'. My harlequin tusk comes up to eat food out of my hand every day (and my finger tip), my tangs have their territory in the tank, etc etc. I also do not know if prisoner ABC is happier waiting for his multiple death sentence appeals - or after they are exhausted.

The Association of Zoos and Aquariums recently changed their terminology from "animal welfare" to "animal wellbeing". The thought was that "welfare" has negative connotations for some people due to how it is used in the US. At the same time, they have begun using the word "happy" as a component of wellbeing. That is so higher-mammal-centric. They use the example that it is easy for us to see that a dog is happy. Of course, I counter with, "so, is this coral happy"?

Jay

 

[Hans-Werner]

I just got a brand new article over Researchgate, please see abstract and images in PDF if you don't speak Indonesian/Malay.

Although the article may be freshwater related there seems to be a positive development in Indonesia after the ban.

 

[FinaticReef]

I prefer to only buy captive-bred fish or rehome fish. My first career was in marine biology and I am also a diver and underwater photographer. When diving I only take photos.
I'm building my reef tank with aquacultured corals and captive bred fish for sustainability and greater success.
A few others mentioned it, breeding should be done responsibly and avoid inbreeding.
Although it's often less money to buy wild caught and they typically offer larger/older specimen, I'm hoping that more people will seek out captive-bred options. The fish are usually sold as juveniles but it gives the hobbyist the opportunity to raise it and grow a deeper bond caring for them. The fish are also already acclimated to life in an aquarium. <3