Could phytoplankton replace a refugium?

[fermentedhiker]

In theory at least dosing live phyto could work similar to carbon dosing just using a different pathway. In carbon dosing the carbon source fuels bacterial growth. The bacteria assimilate N&P and then are assimilated by other organisms in the tank or removed via skimming(the fact that some people see positive results from carbon dosing while not running a skimmer demonstrates that removal isn't 100% responsible for the observed benefits). With live phyto the same could be happening just via assimilation of and N&P via microalgae instead of bacteria. After that the same assimilation and export circumstances would be in play except perhaps different organisms in the tank may be eating the phyto compared to those that are eating the bacteria.

 

[ScottR]

Yes they are utilised & needed. But the nutrients cannot be destroyed. They can change form, like from inorganic to organic, but they cannot be destroyed & just disappear forever.

Ahh so just like scrubbing, they must be removed and binned.

 

[Admann]

Nothing can be destroyed it only changes form. We have finite closed systems, undesirable things have to be removed or converted and reused, they will eventually reach toxic levels, similar to the tank we all live in.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Ahh so just like scrubbing, they must be removed and binned.

Yep. So if you take your exported macro & put it in the garden it will break down & the inorganic nutrients will be used as fertiliser by the garden plants to create organic matter through photosynthesis. If their veggies & you eat them, you'll (temporarily) utilise some of the nutrients to build new cells etc, & poop some out - & your poop will contain inorganic nutrients. And round it goes. They cannot be destroyed.

 

[ScottR]

Yep. So if you take your exported macro & put it in the garden it will break down & the inorganic nutrients will be used as fertiliser by the garden plants to create organic matter through photosynthesis. If their veggies & you eat them, you'll (temporarily) utilise some of the nutrients to build new cells etc, & poop some out - & your poop will contain inorganic nutrients. And round it goes. They cannot be destroyed.

If only I had a garden. I live in a sprawling city of pollution.

 

[sixty_reefer]

For phyto to replace a scrubber or fuge as an inorganic nutrient filter the photo would have to be discarded rather than fed to the system.

Agree I’ve only noticed phytoplankton creating an impact on nutrients wend I was using the concept in this thread

Continuous phytoplankton|rotifers reactor 24h food supply

Hi guys this is a little project I’ve been working on for a few months and now looking for your views on this subject. It all started with me getting a few non photosynthetic corals (gorgonians) and got me thinking in a way we’re I could give them a constant supply of food. The project started...

www.reef2reef.com

The reactor was discarding phytoplankton into the system every hour, 24 times a day, 7 days per week. leaving phytoplankton in the water column always available. My only issue was po4 increase, most probably from the culture fertiliser, hence playing around now with a way to keep the phytoplankton going without the conventional fertilisers.

 

[sixty_reefer]

In theory at least dosing live phyto could work similar to carbon dosing just using a different pathway. In carbon dosing the carbon source fuels bacterial growth. The bacteria assimilate N&P and then are assimilated by other organisms in the tank or removed via skimming(the fact that some people see positive results from carbon dosing while not running a skimmer demonstrates that removal isn't 100% responsible for the observed benefits). With live phyto the same could be happening just via assimilation of and N&P via microalgae instead of bacteria. After that the same assimilation and export circumstances would be in play except perhaps different organisms in the tank may be eating the phyto compared to those that are eating the bacteria.

Agree with this, as phytoplankton that doesn’t gets consumed by zoo and coral will breakdown to Carbon Nitrogen and Phosphorus all that will be consumed by bacteria

 

[Quietman]

Planktonic species (at least smaller ones) are skimmable. So I would say yes, this is viable export means just not sure how effective. But like carbon dosing will need skimmer for removal. Unlike the bacteria we use for export I do not believe that phyto or zoo reproduce in self sustaining populations in our tanks without special conditions or repeated additions of food sources/species re-population. So that makes it a less viable as nutrient removal than the 'naturally' occurring bacteria and/or the macroalgae in a refugium that needs no additional source (other than light - which is cheap after initial expense).

I'd be interested in someone's experience growing their own populations for additions and nutrient removal to see how viable this might be long term. Just seeing a lot of effort for the value compared to other methods.

You can bind organics into shells and exoskeletons that will not decompose easily, suspect this is limited benefit. But there's not a lot of data on carbon dosing without skimmers and I'm not trying it. Plus may result in added nutrients if pH or other tank parameters deviated from normal conditions.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Planktonic species (at least smaller ones) are skimmable. So I would say yes, this is viable export means just not sure how effective. But like carbon dosing will need skimmer for removal. Unlike the bacteria we use for export I do not believe that phyto or zoo reproduce in self sustaining populations in our tanks without special conditions or repeated additions of food sources/species re-population. So that makes it a less viable as nutrient removal than the 'naturally' occurring bacteria and/or the macroalgae in a refugium that needs no additional source (other than light - which is cheap after initial expense).

I'd be interested in someone's experience growing their own populations for additions and nutrient removal to see how viable this might be long term. Just seeing a lot of effort for the value compared to other methods.

You can bind organics into shells and exoskeletons that will not decompose easily, suspect this is limited benefit. But there's not a lot of data on carbon dosing without skimmers and I'm not trying it. Plus may result in added nutrients if pH or other tank parameters deviated from normal conditions.

On my initial 2 year experience with an automated phytoplankton reactor I’ve observed that there was no need to use a protein skimmer everything was being transformed in the tank, Phytoplankton culture in self sustaining mode is not hard to achieve it only takes a bit of ingenuity. The only bad thing I’ve observed was the build up of po4 due to fertiliser. I believe with a different approach (not using fertiliser) phytoplankton could be key for many life forms in a tank, not just nutrients control. This microalgae contains the building blocks of ocean life, similar to milk to mammals.

 

[Quietman]

On my initial 2 year experience with an automated phytoplankton reactor I’ve observed that there was no need to use a protein skimmer everything was being transformed in the tank, Phytoplankton culture in self sustaining mode is not hard to achieve it only takes a bit of ingenuity. The only bad thing I’ve observed was the build up of po4 due to fertiliser. I believe with a different approach (not using fertiliser) phytoplankton could be key for many life forms in a tank, not just nutrients control. This microalgae contains the building blocks of ocean life, similar to milk to mammals.

Interesting...wasn't thinking of automated reactor. Not sure if everything is being transformed if there's a PO4 build up issue, though. I would think it'd be hard to add sufficient nutrients for growth to that without overloading tank as you've said. Big ocean...small tanks. I could see automated separate system plankton reactor and then dosing plankton more economically (not sure if that's more value than other methods, but like the idea).

 

[sixty_reefer]

Interesting...wasn't thinking of automated reactor. Not sure if everything is being transformed if there's a PO4 build up issue, though. I would think it'd be hard to add sufficient nutrients for growth to that without overloading tank as you've said. Big ocean...small tanks. I could see automated separate system plankton reactor and then dosing plankton more economically (not sure if that's more value than other methods, but like the idea).

This was the set up



I’ve now managed to create a culture with virtually no po4 in comparison with the previous one that used to read 3plus, only in the initial stage but looking forward to see if this makes a change on the po4 issue.

 

[Afterburner]

This was the set up



I’ve now managed to create a culture with virtually no po4 in comparison with the previous one that used to read 3plus, only in the initial stage but looking forward to see if this makes a change on the po4 issue.

Sixty_reefer
What do you have floating around in your rotifer/copod culture? Looks like some sort of rocks/media, and why? I noticed these in a past video of your system and meant to ask about it then also.

 

[Thespammailaccount]

Nothing can be destroyed it only changes form. We have finite closed systems, undesirable things have to be removed or converted and reused, they will eventually reach toxic levels, similar to the tank we all live in.

A good explanation of a conservation law

 

[sixty_reefer]

Sixty_reefer
What do you have floating around in your rotifer/copod culture? Looks like some sort of rocks/media, and why? I noticed these in a past video of your system and meant to ask about it then also.

It’s k1 micro media, I find that it helps keeping the reactor clean and it helps keeping the phytoplankton suspended, I believe this prolonged the culture too as mine run for two years without crashing.

 

[Katrina71]

I think it would work best together, the way it does in the ocean.

 

[Afterburner]

It’s k1 micro media, I find that it helps keeping the reactor clean and it helps keeping the phytoplankton suspended, I believe this prolonged the culture too as mine run for two years without crashing.

Thank you. I only dose phytoplankton right now (automatically from an old wine cooler) in my 90g mixed reef (135ml per day plus a bit that I pour in some mornings). I make the phyto using regular fertilizer that came with the original seed Tetra and Nano. My PO4 has not seemed to change much (less than 0.10..... today at 0.04), and my NO3 is stable around 2.5ppm since I started this a couple months ago. I turn off my skimmer during the day also and the bulk of the phyto is dosed in the morning with small 5ml extra doses spread out 3 times at night. My plan is to sort of replicate your automatic system, but make the phytoplankton separately and dose it into a vessel of copods in the sump that will overflow into the tank. Do you think this will work, and what do I need to look out for? Do I need to dose additional tank water at the same time as the phytoplankton to keep from making the copods tank pure phytoplankton over a short time?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Thank you. I only dose phytoplankton right now (automatically from an old wine cooler) in my 90g mixed reef (135ml per day plus a bit that I pour in some mornings). I make the phyto using regular fertilizer that came with the original seed Tetra and Nano. My PO4 has not seemed to change much (less than 0.10..... today at 0.04), and my NO3 is stable around 2.5ppm since I started this a couple months ago. I turn off my skimmer during the day also and the bulk of the phyto is dosed in the morning with small 5ml extra doses spread out 3 times at night. My plan is to sort of replicate your automatic system, but make the phytoplankton separately and dose it into a vessel of copods in the sump that will overflow into the tank. Do you think this will work, and what do I need to look out for? Do I need to dose additional tank water at the same time as the phytoplankton to keep from making the copods tank pure phytoplankton over a short time?

You should post a link to your build for the wine cooler, sounds interesting. As for the rotifers it depends how much you want to dose. They seem to bloom pretty easy and your plan is sound.

 

[TheShrimpNibbler]

Thank you. I only dose phytoplankton right now (automatically from an old wine cooler) in my 90g mixed reef (135ml per day plus a bit that I pour in some mornings). I make the phyto using regular fertilizer that came with the original seed Tetra and Nano. My PO4 has not seemed to change much (less than 0.10..... today at 0.04), and my NO3 is stable around 2.5ppm since I started this a couple months ago. I turn off my skimmer during the day also and the bulk of the phyto is dosed in the morning with small 5ml extra doses spread out 3 times at night. My plan is to sort of replicate your automatic system, but make the phytoplankton separately and dose it into a vessel of copods in the sump that will overflow into the tank. Do you think this will work, and what do I need to look out for? Do I need to dose additional tank water at the same time as the phytoplankton to keep from making the copods tank pure phytoplankton over a short time?

The only problem that foresee is that the copepods might travel backwards through the dosing line if it is actually in the culture, and that could contaminate the phyto. Other than that, this sounds like a solid plan. You wouldn’t need to add tank water too because the copepods would eat the phyto, thus preventing it from becoming pure phyto.

 

[Afterburner]

The only problem that foresee is that the copepods might travel backwards through the dosing line if it is actually in the culture, and that could contaminate the phyto. Other than that, this sounds like a solid plan. You wouldn’t need to add tank water too because the copepods would eat the phyto, thus preventing it from becoming pure phyto.

The reason I worry about the phyto overwhelming the copod tank quickly is because I presently dose 135ml a day, and there is not much room in my sump for a large copod chamber. I also sort of concentrate my phyto by storing it in my fridge and syphoning off the top layer a few times prior to putting it in my my dosing wine cooler. I also manually dose another 80-100ml of phyto manually a day (when I am home), but it won't be in the copod chamber so probably doesn't matter.