Crystal clear water without carbon

[TbyZ]

I am very skeptical about the premise. Remember both purigen and GAC can be regenerated, but unless you are operating at certain volume both of them will not make much sense. Above a certain volume, GAC will always outcompete purigen (GAC is multiple industry-wide popular for the exact reason, and in all those use cases, you can replace with resins/purigen like binding agents but at higher cost, unless you have certain advantages due, like better supply chain for purigen, I am fairly sure it will always be more expensive). Lastly, I'll echo Randy's assessment that given a certain amount of debris (odor, color) GAC will give a better effect than purigen . One thing I might see is that purigen might be required in less volume/space (so may be preferable in small setups where space is an issue... )
The most popular (and I'll say for all the right reason) way to use GAC followed by purigen for chemical filtration, GAC takes the 80% of bad stuff, the last possible 20% is taken out by purigen... Example: A popular combo for filtration in biocube 29G (i think its the Honda CRV of nano reefs) is to go with Filter floss + Chemi pure (GAC) + Purigen

I do kinda agree that it will be nice to setup a control experiment where we have a fixed amount of debri in the water and then run it through different combination of GAC, Purigen and GAC+Purigen and see how it performs...

I've suggested a comparison test to BRS. Hopefully they'll do it some time soon.

Anyhow, Randy suggests that a good GAC like ROX8, & Purigen remove some different organics, so using both would be benificial.

How do you regenerate GAC?

 

[Ranjib]

I've suggested a comparison test to BRS. Hopefully they'll do it some time soon.

Anyhow, Randy suggests that a good GAC like ROX8, & Purigen remove some different organics, so using both would be benificial.

How do you regenerate GAC?

By using steam , thermal (pyrolysis? ) or chemical means to get rid of the absorbed organics selectively, without damaging the charcoal . I don’t know which one would be best for the GAC we use (again I’ll search Boyd’s website ) , but this is possible

 

[TbyZ]

By using steam , thermal (pyrolysis? ) or chemical means to get rid of the absorbed organics selectively, without damaging the charcoal . I don’t know which one would be best for the GAC we use (again I’ll search Boyd’s website ) , but this is possible

Probably not for the home hobbiest though. I imagine we'd all be regenerating our old GAC by now if there was a cheap effective method.

 

[Forsaken77]

Just to let you know, Seachem Matrix and Seachem De*nitrate are basically the same product, just one is smaller than the other. I believe it even mentions on Seachems' website that Matrix is actually more effective than De*nitrate. So there's really no reason at all to use De*nitrate unless you have a 5 gallon AIO tank with VERY slow flow through the filter and very limited space.

Matrix is better because you accomplish the same thing as De*nitrate, but can have more water flowing around and through it to promote denitrification. It has more surface area compared to De*nitrate. So you don't need both.

Also, Randy wasn't being rude at all. I think you may have misinterpreted him. Amazon reviewers are mostly people with little to no knowledge about saltwater products and the chemistry going on in your tank. If the product didn't kill any fish, they give it 5-stars and say it works great.

So if you want information about something, come here and ask. Don't get your knowledge from Amazon reviews. Your tank will die quickly that way, lol .

It's like a kid who plays Tee-Ball baseball telling a Major League Baseball player how to play baseball.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I forgot to mention in the first post is that a good source of information might be to look at the Chemipure (only GAC), Chemipure Elite (GAC+GFO), Chemipure Blue (GAC+GFO+Something similar to purigen) development,... Boyd the company which produces this has a stellar record and these products were developed over time as improvement over their predecessors... and as they applied the filtration techniques across different industries. .. They also provide very good technical information around the effectivenes of each of these compounds, the same is reflected by their relative ratios in each product group

Very good technical information?

Let's just take two ridiculous examples:

1. Check their claims for Chemipure:

http://boyd--enterprises.com/chemipure/

"Prevents ion antagonism"

Can you explain what that means?

2. Check their claims for chemi clean

https://www.marinedepot.com/Boyd_Ch...nterprises_(Chemi_Pure)-BE1115-FIADAL-vi.html

"Contains no phosphates, algaecides or erythromycin succinate."

As chemists, we always thought that was a crazy way to write it. Sort of like, if someone asked if you have a car, and you said, no, I don't have a red Honda Civic. No one cares what the counter ion is to erythromycin (the succinate). They care if this product is an antibiotic (erythromycin) like other cyano treatments.

Well, it turns out it does contain erythromycin. So the description may not be technically incorrect, but it is, without doubt, intended to be misleading and misinforming.

from Claude of Fauna Marin:
http://www.ultimatereef.net/threads/chemi-clean.526917/

"We had in germany a big scandal due to this and the product was analyzed by the veterany office of Hannover
and they showed that this product is erythromycine sulfate .. this is a antibiotics whic normaly only a doctor can give up
due to the usage in this case and this ammounts the possibilitly of unwanted resistance is very big "

 

[Ranjib]

Very good technical information?

Let's just take two ridiculous examples:

1. Check their claims for Chemipure:

http://boyd--enterprises.com/chemipure/

"Prevents ion antagonism"

Can you explain what that means?

2. Check their claims for chemi clean

https://www.marinedepot.com/Boyd_Ch...nterprises_(Chemi_Pure)-BE1115-FIADAL-vi.html

"Contains no phosphates, algaecides or erythromycin succinate."

As chemists, we always thought that was a crazy way to write it. Sort of like, if someone asked if you have a car, and you said, no, I don't have a red Honda Civic. No one cares what the counter ion is to erythromycin (the succinate). They care if this product is an antibiotic (erythromycin) like other cyano treatments.

Well, it turns out it does contain erythromycin. So the description may not be technically incorrect, but it is, without doubt, intended to be misleading and misinforming.

from Claude of Fauna Marin:
http://www.ultimatereef.net/threads/chemi-clean.526917/

"We had in germany a big scandal due to this and the product was analyzed by the veterany office of Hannover
and they showed that this product is erythromycine sulfate .. this is a antibiotics whic normaly only a doctor can give up
due to the usage in this case and this ammounts the possibilitly of unwanted resistance is very big "

Wow, I don't know what to say. Thanks for pointing out, its like living in the world of fake news

 

[Bruce Burnett]

Even though many manufactures make misleading statements some of these products work well. Many of these items work great on small tanks but when you start getting up around 300 gallons it gets very expensive.

 

[madcanary]

Can always count on @Randy Holmes-Farley with scientifically backed data. I often look for his posts to help with chemistry issues.
I’ll offer input here. I’ve ran a BC29 when I first started reefing. I ran chemipure elite and purigen because I read somewhere and thought it was the standard. It worked, water was clean tank looked great. I fed my fish and went about my business.
Threw it out and replaced because renewal was a hassle.
Fast forward to getting my 1st “real”tank
It would cost 60 bucks every 4-6 months and around 12 bucks for the purigen
Rox carbon is 20 bucks for 8 cups 1 cup a month that’s 8 months
High capacity GFO 44 bucks that’s the best of the best.
So your paying 10 dollars more for a product that may or may not work equally well. I think I’m a small tank your method may work.
I haven’t seen much usage of chemipure and purigen on a larger scale most of the bigger aquariums run GFO and ROX maybe something
Point worth mentioning is always a great idea when sparking conversation with a world respected Reef chemist if your going to state fact you need to back with tested research. It’s one thing to have an opinion.
Again best wishes thank you for your insight and contribution it always goo to hear what works for people there are so many snake oils on the market it’s good to see what works and what don’t.

 

[Ali350z]

Roberto...i don't know if you know...but...randy Holmes farley is known as a legend in the reef community. Lol. I have never met him but all my lfs and reef buddies follow his articles. They are amazing. You can Google him lol

 

[Robert Vacchiano]

Have not used purigen but it’s not cheap and a good carbon will be just as effective and cheaper as for matrix and denitrate goes have used and it has never lowered my nitrates think it is a wast of money in my opion

 

[James Emory]

I'm not sure Purigen (the product you are using that competes with carbon) is better than a good carbon (e.g., ROX 0.8), and I have never seen any true comparative data, but it is certainly a fine product to export organics.

What appears to be pristine water clarity in smaller tanks may not appear so pristine say in a 180 gallon tank. I agree that the products performance is good but I'm not so sure if it is better than good quality carbon.

 

[GoGo98102]

Is it just me or did anyone feel when Roberto argued with Randy, it was like watching someone explaining the theory of relativity to Einstein?

 

[TbyZ]

Is it just me or did anyone feel when Robert argued with Randy, it was like watching someone explaining the theory of relativity to Einstein?

I could imagine Randy saying to Roberto "do you know who I am?"

And Roberto's reply "No?"

 

[Robert Vacchiano]

I do it did not seem that randy meant any harm to me

 

[Cnidoblast]

or that scence in the Dark Night Rises

 

[Bob agren]

I personally would not jeopardize my 10k investment on amazon Reviews! Randy rocks with knowledge that a huge number of reefers has used with great results. Amazon reviews in comparison is for beginners not interested in the science of the real facts and results. Been doing this reef thing for 25+years and still learning. Keep up the great work Randy!

 

[apt220]

I have the utmost respect for RHF for his contribution to reefing community and also the medical profession. His scientific point of view is priceless, especially in these forums where anecdotal-based advice (like the one I'm about to write, lol) run rampant.

But back to topic, I was surprisingly excited to see how clear my water became after I started using filter floss. But in all fairness I wasn't using any mechanical filtration prior to that except for a sponge. I gave up on filter socks a while ago because I disliked having to clean them. I do run Rowaphos (active) and BRS ROX carbon (passive).

 

[Anirban]

@GoVols Freddie whats your take on purigen and carbon? I know you are a long term dedicated purigen user.

 

[GoVols]

@GoVols Freddie whats your take on purigen and carbon? I know you are a long term dedicated purigen user.

If you pack Purigen tight it will make your water crystal clear and there's no worries about HLLE.

But you need to make sure that the water is not, flowing around it.

It does not absorb nitrates that are already in the water column.

I "Suspend" it in a reactor so that it does not strip out too many organics from the water column and it works with my protein skimmer.

It's just one piece of my puzzle and I can't promise that it will work for others, like it does for me.

You can re-charge it but it does not come back to 100% and it's just not worth the effort.

It's not good for pulling out treatments, like carbon.

I'd say ROX is more aggressive.

 

[Forsaken77]

If you pack Purigen tight it will make your water crystal clear and there's no worries about HLLE.

But you need to make sure that the water is not, flowing around it.

It does not absorb nitrates that are already in the water column.

I "Suspend" it in a reactor so that it does not strip out too many organics from the water column and it works with my protein skimmer.

It's just one piece of my puzzle and I can't promise that it will work for others, like it does for me.

You can re-charge it but it does not come back to 100% and it's just not worth the effort.

I'd say ROX is more aggressive.

Doesn't Purigen lower the oxygen in the water as well? Thought I read that somewhere.